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I have an oil pick up that is modified. It is based on the principle of the oil pick up in an airplane. There they use it for flying upside down. So a dual pickup in a vertical orientation as for the plane. Becomes a horizontal configuration in the sump of the car.
The pick up is T-shaped with baffles on each distal end left and right in the sump.
The baffles slide back and forth under centrifugal force in a curve to open the pick up at the side where the oil is moving due to centrifugal force.
Works like a charm. Whatever oil is available piles up on one side of the sump where the pick up is open. You can even see the oil pressure going up at certain point as the oil column at the inlet at the outside side of the curve becomes much higher in the curve as all the oil is there. The extra pressure at the inlet due to the extra height of the oil level compared to normal helps the oil pump.
Unfortunately I have no picture of it. Kind of a secret of my mechanic.
Hmmm. This is intriguing. I wonder how well an aircraft style flop tube would work in these engines? A flop tube is a flexible oil pickup that is weighted at the free end. This gives the tube momentum to follow the oil in turns.
All rigid! like a T shaped flute.
nothing moves except the flaps sliding left and right opening/closing the pick up openings at the distal ends of the T.
All rigid! like a T shaped flute.
nothing moves except the flaps sliding left and right opening/closing the pick up openings at the distal ends of the T.
Are the baffles still in place or does the tube ends extend all(almost) the way to the sump wall?
The red line here shows where the oil level is when doing a steady 1g turn with 10cm oil level in the sump. 10cm is 1cm lower than minimum(the dot) on the dip stick. So, i doubt that the oil pressure drops we are seeing is due to oil moving left/right in the sump and causing the pick up going dry. I suspect the baffled chamber goes dry because the flow in-to it is too slow...or fills with aerated oil due to the inlets is skimming the aerated top surface of the oil. I haven't found an exact number but the flow is roughly 1qt of oil per second close to redline, that is a lot of oil flow. Jake, maybe you have a more exact oil flow number I can use?
If the oil pickup positions are altered to the sides as shown (purple zones) the oil level at these positions places a significant role.
Can somebody indicate more or less at what level the oil pump is. just wondering how big the difference in hydrostatic pressure of the oil column is and how it would affect the oil being supplied to the pump compared to the original or deeper sump kits.
I am not aware of the absolute effects of these oil level differences and how sensible a gear type pump is to supply pressures. The lower the pick-up and the oil level is with respect to the oil pump the more it needs to suck the oil. Maybe it is minor to no effect. Anyone?
The problem I see with locating the two oil pickup tubes to the outer side of the sump is in a hard left/right sweeper, yes, one pickup tube would be sucking up the oil that sloshes to that side, but the other one would be sucking air, and thus probably creating a lot of aeration. Only a thought...
From the lowest part of the pick-up to the pump gear center, it's around 95mm...give or take a few mm. The oil level is higher than this if the car is on level ground.
The pump is very capable. This type of pump delivers a constant flow depending of RPM and can deliver enormous pressure. To protect the engine from over pressure there is a bypass pressure relief and ultimately the driveshaft to the pump is designed to break before you damage something serious.
To protect the engine from over pressure there is a bypass pressure relief and ultimately the driveshaft to the pump is designed to break before you damage something serious.
Yeah, it's not like shearing the oil pump drive would ever cause something else "serious", right?
It makes a ton of sense... "Let's design the oil pump to stop delivering primary oil supply completely, in case we have too much pressure",
It takes a real engineer to design something like this.. One that has no practical application experience, or common sense.
The very first M9X engine failure I experienced with my program was due to the factory oil pump hex drive shearing in half. If you want to see a total, and instant loss of everything within the engine, try this failure on for size. Nothing was salvageable.
It was at that instant that I stopped building engines completely, until we could develop the billet oil pump hex drive that has been sold by LN Engineering since 2007. 100% of my engines have received them since this period, and I won't build an engine without it.
I love the inventive discussion in this thread. The thing that each of you need to realize is to get this sort of thing "right" you'll need a sacrificial engine. You are almost guaranteed not to get it right on the first try. I popped 3 engines before I figured it out.
At the end of the day, you are reinventing the wheel for no real reason. 95% of the people on this forum can't create a scenario where the stock oil system is put over the edge, as long as oil temperatures are kept in check. Keep the oil cool, and that's all you need to do. I have several hundred examples that prove this, some in service since 2008, like the engine that @ltusler has had in his 996 since late 2008, which has only seen the track.
Just keep the oil cool, then the rest works. You are much more likely to become a zero, by trying to be the hero who solves the problems with this oil system, that you'll likely never experience if you just keep the oil cool. The enemy of excess oil temperatures lies in the factory engine oil/ coolant "heat exchanger"... You notice that I didn't refer to it as an "oil cooler".
I blow things up for fun. Next week I plan to sacrifice an M97 engine in the name of fun, and entertainment. We learn something with everything that we kill on purpose.
Its a system I developed. Its an option on all Stage 3 and Stage 4 engines built here at Flat 6.
Again, the key is to keep oil temps in check, and use a proper oil. Right oil, right place, right time, and in the right pressure are the basic fundamentals of lubrication. The shape and size of the stock sump area is another problem with oil control.
As an owner of a FSI 4.0 Stage III Track Performer, I have no trouble with the pressure dropping. Yes it dips a bit on long right handers, but I have had no issues. Jake built the engine for the intended use. Its been in service since 2014 and has seen 3250 track miles, through DE and 3 seasons of PCA Club Racing running in the GT-3 group. I run Hoosier R7's. My home track is BIR so that accounts for 2/3rds of the miles and Road America is the other 1/3rd.
LN Sump plate
3rd Radiator
Motorsports AOS
Custom Bearing Clearances
Billet Crank
All the improvements FSI had in 2014
Amsoil Dominator 15-50
As an owner of a FSI 4.0 Stage III Track Performer, I have no trouble with the pressure dropping. Yes it dips a bit on long right handers, but I have had no issues. Jake built the engine for the intended use. Its been in service since 2014 and has seen 3250 track miles, through DE and 3 seasons of PCA Club Racing running in the GT-3 group. I run Hoosier R7's. My home track is BIR so that accounts for 2/3rds of the miles and Road America is the other 1/3rd.
LN Sump plate
3rd Radiator
Motorsports AOS
Custom Bearing Clearances
Billet Crank
All the improvements FSI had in 2014
Amsoil Dominator 15-50
True.. I was adding up the first generation period too; before the AOS popped.. But at least I called it, and the UOA told me that things were imminent!
The problem I see with locating the two oil pickup tubes to the outer side of the sump is in a hard left/right sweeper, yes, one pickup tube would be sucking up the oil that sloshes to that side, but the other one would be sucking air, and thus probably creating a lot of aeration. Only a thought...
No, no problem. It is designed with a system that closes/opens the right side of the pick-up due to the g-forces applied. That is the whole clue.
Jake, it has been tested. On track. In the particular problematic turns the oil pressure goes up instead down. Surprisingly to see.
As a hypothesis I cannot find any other explanation then that the oil is pressure fed better to the pump due to the much higher hydrostatic (or we have to say oiliostatic 😉 pressure at the outer parts of the sump in a turn. Or just less air in the oil at such relative deeper levels. But I am not an expert to judge such theory.
Jake, if you broke the drive you did something that you where not supposed to do. Or maybe you already compromised the part at assembly? Apart from you I haven't read/heard one single person experience it. If you know one which is documented, please link.
Jake, if you broke the drive you did something that you where not supposed to do. Or maybe you already compromised the part at assembly? Apart from you I haven't read/heard one single person experience it. If you know one which is documented, please link.
I break every rule. This engine ran 14:1 CR, among other things. It revved like a motorcycle. It's my job to break things before anyone else does, and to experience the things that others never get the opportunity to.
The engine that I used as a "core" for this 4.0 that failed due to the drive snapping was a brand new, Porsche factory crate engine with zero miles on it. Back when these engines were cheap, and cores were not plentiful, I used to buy brand new ones, and take them apart, to make them my way..
That said, I've had two people in my hands- on classes experience this, and have assisted at least 2-3 other people who have had this occur. The other engines were stock, where mine was insanely modified.
I'll find the pics of the failed drive over the weekend. They are stored online in an archive, and they are pretty deep in there.
Also, you never answered my questions about your direct experience with building these engines. I guess I'll keep waiting for that.
As a data point, the 996's were used at the Porsche Sport Driving School in that period when they were new at Barber Motorsport park. I was lead Porsche Technician at the Porsche Birmingham Dealership 5 miles away and was in charge of repairs to the fleet of 996's at that time (later changed out for 997's, 991's ect as new models were released.) These cars were tracked daily 7 days week by Instructors and Students of the Driving School and none had oil pressure drops on turns using Mobil 1 0w-40 and running on "N" spec tires of Pirelli, Michelin, Continental.
That said, some of these cars definitely experience pressure drops on turns after they have some age on them. That is not a good thing, but some survive a long time with no terminal failures.There are over 50 critical clearances in the M96 engine. 7 main bearings, 6 rod bearings, 16 cam bearings, 32 lifters, 3 chain tensioners, 2 vario-cam Actuators.ect. Like Jake said Porsche built these engines a bit on the tight side (as far as racing engines are concerned) but if only one thousandths of wear in over 50 places will cause a significant increase in oil flow. The oil pump is large enough to handle the extra flow without any pressure loss, but the extra flow causes more aeration of the oil, and there is some oil drain back passages that are too small ( about .250) IMO, these needs to be enlarged so the more oil flow can get back to the sump quicker.Like Jake said, keeping the oil cooler will keep it thicker and keep the flow less.Extra oil capacity helps in both cooler and thicker oil/less flow,( deep sump)..
Originally Posted by Silk
I have an oil pick up that is modified. It is based on the principle of the oil pick up in an airplane. There they use it for flying upside down. So a dual pickup in a vertical orientation as for the plane. Becomes a horizontal configuration in the sump of the car.
The pick up is T-shaped with baffles on each distal end left and right in the sump.
The baffles slide back and forth under centrifugal force in a curve to open the pick up at the side where the oil is moving due to centrifugal force.
Works like a charm. Whatever oil is available piles up on one side of the sump where the pick up is open. You can even see the oil pressure going up at certain point as the oil column at the inlet at the outside side of the curve becomes much higher in the curve as all the oil is there. The extra pressure at the inlet due to the extra height of the oil level compared to normal helps the oil pump.
Unfortunately I have no picture of it. Kind of a secret of my mechanic.
This is actually a very good concept !! It will give the effect of 2-3 quarts of extra oil capacity, and with a 2 qt deep sump, will give the effect of 4-5 extra qts. 9qts is plenty of oil for our engines if controlled properly. This design concept will definitely keep the oil pump pickup in the desired place on turns/high g-force if the hardware construction/switching device is solid..
I have an oil pick up that is modified. It is based on the principle of the oil pick up in an airplane. There they use it for flying upside down. So a dual pickup in a vertical orientation as for the plane. Becomes a horizontal configuration in the sump of the car.
The pick up is T-shaped with baffles on each distal end left and right in the sump.
The baffles slide back and forth under centrifugal force in a curve to open the pick up at the side where the oil is moving due to centrifugal force.
Works like a charm. Whatever oil is available piles up on one side of the sump where the pick up is open. You can even see the oil pressure going up at certain point as the oil column at the inlet at the outside side of the curve becomes much higher in the curve as all the oil is there. The extra pressure at the inlet due to the extra height of the oil level compared to normal helps the oil pump.
Unfortunately I have no picture of it. Kind of a secret of my mechanic.
09-18-2020, 12:27 AM
pressure at the outer parts of the sump in a turn. Or just less air in the oil at such relative deeper levels. But I am not an expert to judge such theory.
