I'm tired of this "designed to be driven hard" nonsense
02-17-2011 | 09:10 PM
#121
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,981
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From: Virginia
As someone mentioned, the "italian tune up" does work for a reason in old cars because it helps clear out the less clean (scientificaly monitored) engine burn. It gets the "carbon build up" out. Perhaps a modern DI car, with massive computing power, o2 sensors and other technology able to keep the engine running clean, despite RPM load, makes it no longer necessary to drive a car hard.
02-17-2011 | 09:53 PM
#122
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,714
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From: Clifton, NJ
Maybe it harkens back to the "get the lead out" and having "carbueretors" that would plug up/flood and spark plugs that would "foul" etc etc. A '67S was not a happy camper below 3K rpm and thus, keeping it in the 5-6K range would make it run better. I am sure that was true of many old cars regardless of brand.
As someone mentioned, the "italian tune up" does work for a reason in old cars because it helps clear out the less clean (scientificaly monitored) engine burn. It gets the "carbon build up" out. Perhaps a modern DI car, with massive computing power, o2 sensors and other technology able to keep the engine running clean, despite RPM load, makes it no longer necessary to drive a car hard.
As someone mentioned, the "italian tune up" does work for a reason in old cars because it helps clear out the less clean (scientificaly monitored) engine burn. It gets the "carbon build up" out. Perhaps a modern DI car, with massive computing power, o2 sensors and other technology able to keep the engine running clean, despite RPM load, makes it no longer necessary to drive a car hard.
02-17-2011 | 10:02 PM
#123
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: Clifton, NJ
Tim has a good point. For me, to drive the car hard, means to let the car to open up fully every time I drive it. Not shifting gears until I've reached at least 4.5K rpms, always taking the car trough the full RPM range, and never cruise at under 3K rpms.
I have driven cars that have been babied, and you can tell the difference. They have a resistance to rev as fast, or as high as a car that has been driven "hard".
Also, at lower RPMS, on babied engines, you'll find greater carbon deposits on the valves and heads. This leads to detonation, pinging, and valves that don't seal propertly due to carbon. Bad compression, bad leakdown numbers, clogged SAI, etc, etc.
The tolerances and materials used in building these engines are such, that the extra wear that you may get by running the engine on higher RPM ranges is minimal compared to the greater damage that can be caused by babying it.
Proof? I have as much proof as you may have on the other side of the argument. This is just my observation from many, many years of owning multiple sports cars from different manufacturers. All these cars have been driven hard, and their engines have gone over 150K miles, never have had to do a overhaul, head work, and oil usage was well below the average for that car model/year.
Disclaimer: I don't know anything about cars, but I slept at a Holiday Inn.
I have driven cars that have been babied, and you can tell the difference. They have a resistance to rev as fast, or as high as a car that has been driven "hard".
Also, at lower RPMS, on babied engines, you'll find greater carbon deposits on the valves and heads. This leads to detonation, pinging, and valves that don't seal propertly due to carbon. Bad compression, bad leakdown numbers, clogged SAI, etc, etc.
The tolerances and materials used in building these engines are such, that the extra wear that you may get by running the engine on higher RPM ranges is minimal compared to the greater damage that can be caused by babying it.
Proof? I have as much proof as you may have on the other side of the argument. This is just my observation from many, many years of owning multiple sports cars from different manufacturers. All these cars have been driven hard, and their engines have gone over 150K miles, never have had to do a overhaul, head work, and oil usage was well below the average for that car model/year.
Disclaimer: I don't know anything about cars, but I slept at a Holiday Inn.
I've driven cars from hyundais to ferraris that have been babied and beaten. I truly believe the only reason a modern car that has been babied may initially feel sluggish is because of the adaptive transmissions. I know that when I drive my mercedes around town all week, it takes a couple of hard runs on the highway to get decent performance out of it.
Heres the problem...you say that low rpms will cause greater carbon build up. The problem is, I haven't seen anything conclusive that confirms this.
I also struggle about the tolerances and materials. I'm not terribly impressed with some of porsche's parts choices.
I guess a lot of it comes down to this:
I'm not terribly impressed with porsche's engine building. I'm also not impressed with a 993 goes 100k miles without new valve guides. That should be a given to me...call me cynical.
02-17-2011 | 10:05 PM
#124
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 30
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I'm not a 993 owner yet, but will be! My expierience has been the with the cars I've owned, mostly small block chevys. They run better and longer driven hard, other than high rpm missed shifts. Bought my first BMW a year ago. Seems to like the same. I have not driven it that much, it is wifes car and an automatic. Bought second BMW an e46 a week ago it is my car and a manual. Likes high rpm driving or maybe its just the way I drive. This is what has worked for me. I'm sure when I buy my 993 more of the same. Just my 2 cents.
02-17-2011 | 10:08 PM
#125
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,463
Likes: 196
From: Montreal, QC
4-cam, hi there. Honestly, no need to be inflammatory.
When knowledgeable persons agree a dry sump Porsche engine is designed to be driven hard, they are stating a patently observable and verifiable truth.
If you drive a well-maintained 993 (or SC, or 3.2 or 964, or GT3) on the track (i.e. hard) it would, by design, provide many tens of thousands of miles of trouble-free operation. This is a fact.
If you were to drive a well-maintained (insert name here) on the track, it would in realtively short order, be inoperable. And that assumes the transmission, clutch or brakes did not catch fire first.
By design, these cars are designed to be driven hard. With few exceptions, the vast majority of other cars are not. Surely you don't find this statement objectionable?
As for the driving moderately vs. drving hard, did any thinking person suggest more RPM and more heat results in less wear? I didn't think so.
So really, what's the fuss?
Best,
Matt
When knowledgeable persons agree a dry sump Porsche engine is designed to be driven hard, they are stating a patently observable and verifiable truth.
If you drive a well-maintained 993 (or SC, or 3.2 or 964, or GT3) on the track (i.e. hard) it would, by design, provide many tens of thousands of miles of trouble-free operation. This is a fact.
If you were to drive a well-maintained (insert name here) on the track, it would in realtively short order, be inoperable. And that assumes the transmission, clutch or brakes did not catch fire first.
By design, these cars are designed to be driven hard. With few exceptions, the vast majority of other cars are not. Surely you don't find this statement objectionable?
As for the driving moderately vs. drving hard, did any thinking person suggest more RPM and more heat results in less wear? I didn't think so.
So really, what's the fuss?
Best,
Matt
ok folks, I'm getting sick of this.
Never on any forum aside from those for Porsches have I seen people preach so much about how porsche engines were "designed to be driven hard" and that not doing so is detrimental to the engine. In my view, the cars were designed to be driven (on the street, with occasional track use) at a varying level of throttle load and rpm. They may tolerate high load and rpm for a while, but they certainly aren't designed specifically for that purpose.
Now, I'm asking for PROOF of the above statements. Not anecdotal stories about how your car runs better after a track trip, or about how your sister's uncle's cousins' grandfather's brother's girlfriend's dad the porsche mechanic said so.
Dyno graphs, pictures of wear created by driving gently, etc is what I'd like to see.
As far as I am concerned, the following is true for any ICE, including those from wonderchild porsche:
1. higher revs = more engine wear
2. Higher load = more engine wear
So, if anybody has any PROOF to the contrary, I would be delighted to hear it.
p.s. this stemmed from a thread in the 997 if you would like to read it.
Cheers.
Never on any forum aside from those for Porsches have I seen people preach so much about how porsche engines were "designed to be driven hard" and that not doing so is detrimental to the engine. In my view, the cars were designed to be driven (on the street, with occasional track use) at a varying level of throttle load and rpm. They may tolerate high load and rpm for a while, but they certainly aren't designed specifically for that purpose.
Now, I'm asking for PROOF of the above statements. Not anecdotal stories about how your car runs better after a track trip, or about how your sister's uncle's cousins' grandfather's brother's girlfriend's dad the porsche mechanic said so.
Dyno graphs, pictures of wear created by driving gently, etc is what I'd like to see.
As far as I am concerned, the following is true for any ICE, including those from wonderchild porsche:
1. higher revs = more engine wear
2. Higher load = more engine wear
So, if anybody has any PROOF to the contrary, I would be delighted to hear it.
p.s. this stemmed from a thread in the 997 if you would like to read it.
Cheers.
02-17-2011 | 10:13 PM
#126
Racer
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 359
Likes: 1
From: Denver, CO
Quadcammer,
I think you may have misunderstood the phrase: "meant to be driven hard".
Its not that if you ride it hard it wont be as good later. What this simply means is that with a 911 you have more RANGE of intensity of how you drive it simply because of the deep, obsessive, highly technical german philosophy of how to build a machine. Simply put: they can take more pressure than most engines of other manufacturers.
"Its meant to be driven hard" ultimately means: "its a shame if you DONT drive it hard, it means "you wasted your money if you never push your 911 to its limits every once in a while." After all, its FUN to do!
Its really not a big deal, just take your 911 for Starbucks lattes and country club poses at if thats what you like...its a free country bro
....I myself catalogued 173mph in mine, it was still, dignified and I never felt it was going to fall part. Honestly, while the world whizzed by me so so fast, the car itself felt normal. So I guess they are meant to be driven hard.
I think you may have misunderstood the phrase: "meant to be driven hard".
Its not that if you ride it hard it wont be as good later. What this simply means is that with a 911 you have more RANGE of intensity of how you drive it simply because of the deep, obsessive, highly technical german philosophy of how to build a machine. Simply put: they can take more pressure than most engines of other manufacturers.
"Its meant to be driven hard" ultimately means: "its a shame if you DONT drive it hard, it means "you wasted your money if you never push your 911 to its limits every once in a while." After all, its FUN to do!
Its really not a big deal, just take your 911 for Starbucks lattes and country club poses at if thats what you like...its a free country bro
....I myself catalogued 173mph in mine, it was still, dignified and I never felt it was going to fall part. Honestly, while the world whizzed by me so so fast, the car itself felt normal. So I guess they are meant to be driven hard.
02-17-2011 | 10:16 PM
#127
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2007
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Cheers
02-17-2011 | 10:17 PM
#128
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,463
Likes: 196
From: Montreal, QC
I also struggle about the tolerances and materials. I'm not terribly impressed with some of porsche's parts choices.
I'm actually not pleased that I came off that way. I got tired of arguing with the 997 boys and was a bit frustrated when I made the few first posts. I guess that came through badly.
I guess a lot of it comes down to this:
I'm not terribly impressed with porsche's engine building. I'm also not impressed with a 993 goes 100k miles without new valve guides. That should be a given to me...call me cynical.
Best,
Matt
02-17-2011 | 10:20 PM
#129
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 16,523
Likes: 82
From: Bend, OR
I'd say "driven" in my world would be considered "driven hard" in most of the US population's world. That is not to say "beaten" or "abused". Like most other things in life, there are no absolutes, and most things are relative. Now I sound like a philosopher.
But, I do stretch the legs in my P-cars. I don't beat them. Except on some track weekends in Ruby's case. And some Saturday mornings doing the Palomar climb in Ruby's and Sapphire's cases. They run better after being driven/.
But, I do stretch the legs in my P-cars. I don't beat them. Except on some track weekends in Ruby's case. And some Saturday mornings doing the Palomar climb in Ruby's and Sapphire's cases. They run better after being driven/.
02-17-2011 | 10:30 PM
#132
Race Car
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,682
Likes: 10
From: Johns Creek, GA
Anyways, as you don't have any proof, and as I don't have any proof., all of this thread is nothing more than opinions. I have mine, and you have yours. As I said before, keep babying your car, I'll drive mine like it should. We'll compare notes in 10 years.
02-17-2011 | 10:33 PM
#133
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,601
Likes: 25
From: Flanders, BE
Coming back from a trip I wanted to be home fast and also felt like driving hard.
When I cam home my exhaust looked very clean. No carbon build up at all anymore.
When I cam home my exhaust looked very clean. No carbon build up at all anymore.
Last edited by TT-911; 12-15-2012 at 07:42 AM.
02-17-2011 | 11:07 PM
#135
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,337
Likes: 796
From: Berkeley Lake, Georgia
driving the car hard
Great post.........enjoying the comments, except from one poster who took it off track.........
Driving hard probably = less carbon deposits in the engine since increased heat and pressure helps carbon burn off cleaner in the valves, combustion chambers, SAI ports, etc......
Italian tune up basically = cleaner engine = better running efficiency........while the wear is under control with regular oil changes, proper maintenance, etc...
As far as cleaning or burning off the oil contamination, not sure if that is valid with running hard or hotter...........greater heat possibly evaporates any water or condensation that may have gotten in the oil, etc...don't know...
Driving up to 4500 rpms most of the time won't get that better burn/clean in the combustion areas of the engine..........running hard helps that, for a while until engine eventually wears out........makes sense that if you run it harder, it will wear out faster and if you run it relatively gently it may last longer as far as metal parts wearing out, but gentle use causes the engine to eventually run less efficient over its lifetime due to carbon build-up, an engine never broken in to the maximum or most effective metal wear tolerances - again a BIG maybe..
Interesting topic/question that was started by Quad......good read most of the thread........
All engines wear and some are better than others.......the Porsches built from 99-2009 through 997.1 were not the best for durability (IMS bearing/shaft issues, engine failures at low miles under 20K, RMS constant leaks, etc..) so every manufacturer has issues depending on the management or R&D regime of people in place, like any business at certain times in their history......
Drive the car, enjoy it, sell it, get another one, drive it, sell it, etc......Porsches happen to be a very fun car to drive........relatively speaking, at either 50mph around 30 mph curves, cruising at 30 mph through a city or tunnel hearing the engine note, or smoking over 150 mph on an open interstate with no traffic for the adrenalin rush..............
Driving hard probably = less carbon deposits in the engine since increased heat and pressure helps carbon burn off cleaner in the valves, combustion chambers, SAI ports, etc......
Italian tune up basically = cleaner engine = better running efficiency........while the wear is under control with regular oil changes, proper maintenance, etc...
As far as cleaning or burning off the oil contamination, not sure if that is valid with running hard or hotter...........greater heat possibly evaporates any water or condensation that may have gotten in the oil, etc...don't know...
Driving up to 4500 rpms most of the time won't get that better burn/clean in the combustion areas of the engine..........running hard helps that, for a while until engine eventually wears out........makes sense that if you run it harder, it will wear out faster and if you run it relatively gently it may last longer as far as metal parts wearing out, but gentle use causes the engine to eventually run less efficient over its lifetime due to carbon build-up, an engine never broken in to the maximum or most effective metal wear tolerances - again a BIG maybe..
Interesting topic/question that was started by Quad......good read most of the thread........
All engines wear and some are better than others.......the Porsches built from 99-2009 through 997.1 were not the best for durability (IMS bearing/shaft issues, engine failures at low miles under 20K, RMS constant leaks, etc..) so every manufacturer has issues depending on the management or R&D regime of people in place, like any business at certain times in their history......
Drive the car, enjoy it, sell it, get another one, drive it, sell it, etc......Porsches happen to be a very fun car to drive........relatively speaking, at either 50mph around 30 mph curves, cruising at 30 mph through a city or tunnel hearing the engine note, or smoking over 150 mph on an open interstate with no traffic for the adrenalin rush..............