996FLT6

My friend(track buddy) at the end of the year or beginning will be looking for a 993(his e36 M3 is no competition). Are there noticeable differences between the two in the track? Haven't driven one so I welcome your responses. Regards. Mike

Jeff 993TT

Can you elaborate more on why your friend thinks his M3 is not a very track car???

I was thinking of getting a M3 for a track car.

Thanks..

Jeff

norman chang

jeff
I'm the guy with the e36 M3, before i got this car, my intention was to get a 911, due to kids,need a back seat, but now my kids are a little older, i can start looking again for a 911.
stock e36 is a very good and easy car to track, very predictable, great for novice to track *****. but now my M3 has 55k miles and the suspension is getting "tired", thought about upgrading the susp. but unless u intend to keep the car, is hard to sell it. so to make the long story short, will be looking into a 911. So i need some feedback on 993 ownership. thanks
norman

George Helser

996FLT6,

The power difference with non-vram and vram is modest. I go to the track for fun. I can hear the change in engine sound when the vario changes the ram and the engine sounds louder so I recommend the 96 & later 993s with vram. I make a stronger recommendation for the motor sound option to maximize fun.

Just my opinion!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

Macca

MY 2 CENTS WORTH.....

Either are fine. A manual is preferrable as is a coupe for control and stiffness respectively.

The pre variorams are much more popular here for track days and there are a few reasons for this. The can be easily modified (read:chipped), and they run fairly cool in our warm summers (less bulk in the already restrictive enginebay). Once modified there is little between any of the pre/post models.

The best advantage for the track would be: A skilled and experienced driver, followed by a great suspension setup and lastly weight.

Im afraid that 13hp just doesnt add up to buggar all when you are on the track - and in NZ the tracks are less than 1.20 minutes long - frankly mid range torgue is only part of the equation....

Good luck either way.

Macca the Kiwi

Hank Cohn

Norman:

My path sounds very similar to yours. I had a ’96 993 that I turned into a dedicated track car. I found myself driving around town in the vehicle that I purchased for towing and realized that something just wasn’t right. I bought a ’99 E36 M3 which, by the way, is the best street car I have owned to date. I should probably qualify that statement, but it would make this post too long. Being ill with the same disease most of the Rennlist shares, I wanted to track the M3. I bought a set of wheels and R compound tires and headed out to Road Atlanta. At the end of the day, the plastic engine tray had blown off and all four rotors were terribly warped. As you said, the car handles very well on the track with a noticeable amount of understeer. I went through the same thought process you are describing. I could easily fix the brake problem with one of the available brake kits on the market and a little suspension work would take care of the understeer and make a good track car great. That’s when I recognized the pattern and realized that I didn’t want or need to build another track car.

I knew from my own experience that the 993 is quite capable on both the road and the track. I decided that I would sacrifice some comfort and relative anonymity for a better all around package for road and track. Last October, I swapped my M3 for a ’95 993. I am happy to report that I am pleased with my decision. I use the 993 for DE events and save the race car for testing and race weekends. I wish I could say that my 993 was still stock, but it isn’t. I guess if it were, I wouldn’t be reading this list or writing this post. Just as a point of reference, comparing a stock ’99 M3 to a stock ’95 993 both with R compound tires at Road Atlanta, the 993 is a little more than 5 seconds per lap faster in very similar conditions.

Have fun and good luck with your decision,

Hank

norman chang

Hank
I'll probably keep my M3 till end of year and then a 993(my first 911). Still haven't decided on which type of 993, i will do more research. But is good to hear that your stock 993 can get faster lap times vs your old M3. Is there a different driving style in the 993 vs m3? I'm asking because the M3 is easy to drive fast, really hard to get into trouble, does it take a learning curve to drive the 911 fast.
what kiind of mods did u do to the 993? I've heard that a chipped 95 has similar performance to the later 993's?
thanks
Norman

Hank Cohn

Norman:

Regarding the learning curve and driving style, I would have to say that it depends on how much track experience you already have. You can get away with a few things in an M3 that you can’t get away with in a 993. Specifically, there is a lot of weight in the rear of a 993 and you have to be aware of that at the limit. No snapping off or stomping on the throttle in turns and no emergency braking in the turns when you think you may have overcooked it. These are the same things you would have to be careful of in any car; you just need to be a little cleaner in a 993. After all, physics is physics. I am not a big believer in chipping cars, although I have talked with Steve Weiner about one of his chips. I have changed the suspension, brakes, clutch and wheels on my car and eliminated a few items in the name of weight savings. I have also installed the awesome RSR mufflers on the car and bolted on the RS body parts (front spoilers, side skirts & rear wing). Do I wish I had a Varioram car? Yes, but for the price and my needs the ’95 is great. I wouldn’t let the Varioram/non-Varioram issue drive your purchase decision. Find a car that suits your needs with the options you like that fits into your budget window.

If I can answer any other questions, let me know.

Hank

DJF1

I agree with what Hank said. As a current owner of a 98 M3 I find it pretty much night and day between the M3 and the 993. I'm not as experienced as Hank on the track as I have done only 5 DE events but I can tell you that the 993 will give you a whole new world of sensations you have never felt before... Taking aside the fact of the engine location my M3 seems to have a much more supple ride that the 993. On the 993 I feel everything, its more direct especially in the steering and braking department. To be honest when i first did a DE with my 993 it scared me. All these new sensations were overwhelming for a guy that has never driven anything with the engine hanging back there... So yes it is a very progressive learning track, as you drive more the car you learn to trust it more and more and you will appreciate all this feedback. So you will have to be patient with this. The ony draw back is that you get bitten by the rennlist bug and you will dish money to "improve" the car!!! I'm already in the hole on the 5k+ side and my list is still very long!!! But then again it is all worth it the pleasure of ownership, the sounds the smells makes the 993 such a special car to treasure for years to come.
Goodl luck.

maurice97C2S

Well, I ditched an M Roadster and an M635CSI to get my Carrera S, and I think they are worlds apart, no comparison. And I've run quite a few miles in M3s of all generations. The 993 is just a far better package, in handling, structural integrity, especially braking.

My 0.02p, cheers, Maurice

Hank Cohn

Maurice97C2S:

I hope neither you nor any other participant in this thread interpreted my comments as being negative toward BMW or especially the E36 M3. I think it is a great car and wish I could have kept the M3. Economics, garage space, wife and reason mandated that I sell it. I don’t want to see this great thread deteriorate into a BMW bashing thread. BMWs are great cars and serve a wider range of purposes than does our 993. You probably can’t have a very capable family mover and a class leading track car in the same vehicle at the price point of the E36 M3. They are great cars all!

Hank

996FLT6

MauriceC2S- Since you stated that you riden all generations of M3's- I always liked the E30(first gen) M3 because it definitely had the killer racer look and much different lookwise to the base e30 model which I can't say for the 2nd/3rd generation. Having driven the E30 I found it to be quite harsh and very firm. Would you say the 993 be similar to the E30 M3 ridewise. My friend had a 993 but he had it lowered with stiffer suspension and 18 inch rims and could not really evaluate how it rides which I wonder how stock would ride like. Also is there some truth that I read from a recent post here that prevarioram midrange trq is about 199 ft/lbs and the varioram is 243 ft/lbs? That sounds significant to me whereas hp figures are not that significant. Regards. Mike

Flying Finn

Hank,

May I ask whay have you removed?

I'm in a same prosses and already out (or in next couple of weeks) are: rear seats, lighter mufflers (supercups), spare tyre, tools & jack, drivers seat changed to momo racing seat (for DEs, I'll remove the passenger seat, although I'm afraid that I will not put it back...), sound insulation inder the carpets, trunk carpet.

Some these are pretty obvious one, what am I missing? (I don't want to take off A/C, heating, (I'd love to dumb the sunroof, but I want to keep the car in condition where I still can put it back to stock, or at least close) these are out from my 911 but I want to keep this one at least a little more 'not serious' than that).

Sorry for taking this little off but maybe Mike will find this kind of info useful in his future 993.

Hank Cohn

FF:

I have done some of the same things you have done. Additionally, I removed the airbags, radio, amp and speakers. I have RS door panels, an aluminum hood and all the parts to convert my electric windows to wind-up windows. I haven't made the decision to get rid of the electric windows yet.

Hank

996FLT6

Flying Finn-if you were implying I going to get a 993 in the future-that would be nice. Nothing's better then having 2 porsche's in one garage. Give me yellow/black with no frills : ). Mike