Mr Michael B

Okay gents... Hold onto your hats.

I pulled the "lap times" comparison in my 1st post because your focussing on that WAY to much.

When I originally wrote all that, I thought to myself: "stating a lap time will just cause trouble" and of course I was right.

So, now that the lap time is pulled, may I continue to say "the '95 was better."

Here is the logic and some answers:

To Mike J:

This was not a challenge to a 1996 w/ my 1995. If it were, my 1995 would have been 8 seconds a lap faster . All I was TRYING to do was give a subjective opinion & state the players details. Thats all I had to work with last week, so I went w/ it. I wish I had EXACT cars, but we know that is not realistic. But... To answer some of your Q's: Mileage on the '96 = 19K , on the '95 = 25K. But please... None of that matters, (until you take those silly lap times into effect, hence why I pulled them). I truly do feel the '95 was a better lapper.

Mike J. went on with "Pulling away from cars on the straight does not make much sense and certainly are not supported by the claimed HP numbers"

I stated clearly "I may have had better exit speed." Mike, did you know that 2 MPH better exit speed out of a given corner works out to near triple & above that MPH straight away speed? With that said however, my '95 still pulls varioram cars (even w/o a turn to give me an advantage). Its a great car. We can compare dragrace time slips if you would like. I have mine right here from Visit 2.0 in KY w/ the PCA. Do you happen to have one for yours? '95's can (and do) beat on varioram cars.

Now moving on: Did I push the students car as hard? Well, YES. Read it again... YES. I clearly stated that I did not abuse either car, and drove both with equal gusto. You could say "did you take it easy in both?" in fact. That would be more appropriate. Therefore the state of tune (or carbon build up like mentioned) would not matter, as I was not "full tilt" in either anyway. And guess who set the tire pressures in each car... Yup, me. Both the same. But that was not the point! Oh & I did not do a 10/10ths lap in one, then think "I don't want to wreck this guys car" in the other. I am a rather qualified driver, and gave both cars the same efforts. NEVER did I have fear of crashing either. BTW I have not ever had to consider damage while I instruct. Its a school, not a Pro Race.

Lastly, no way do I think my test is conclusive. All I wanted to do was interject from a point of view of actual back-to-back trials that no one else seems to have done. Since I just did this, I thought I would toss in a post. Please do not see it as more than what it is.

BTW, my H&R springs are just a minor mod. Its not like they transform the car. It is an upgrade, but its no supercharger. Like I said before, I took the "advantage" my car had into my equation anyhow. Even w/ stock springs the '95 still has an edge.

One other thing of note. Not trying to be a smart butt... However, Ya know... Is the fact that I actually tried a '96 & a '95 back to back escaping notice? Before you just toss out my findings, why don't you step up & try it yourself? At least I can say I have done it, anyone else? You MAY even get the same feeling if you try it. You never know.

On a side note, my car weighed 2970 in street trim (weighed just last month). Anyone have a real # on their vario car?

I also hope I do not come of to harsh for some on this reply. If so, I did not mean to!

ZCAT3

Michael - now you are really starting to cause trouble. Next thing you'll do is say that the "S" cars are slower than the rest of them - that will really cause some problems. How can a cheaper car be faster?

996FLT6

So what gave you the edge on the 95 versus 96 on model 993's? Weight? Can you elaborate what other factors that the 95 is better? Regards. Mike

Mike J

Ouch! I have driven both cars in city/highway conditions and feel that the varioram is slightly more drivable in those conditions...mostly because of torque. Its a seat of the pants test. That happened before I bought my car. I have not driven a 95 on the track so I don't have that experience.

So lets see if we can learn something from all of this discussion. The core question remains as pointed out by 996FLT6. What is the factor that makes your 95 faster (8 sec per lap?)if we say all other factors are equal(ie do not exit with a speed advantage, same driver, same tires..etc)? Is it within car-to-car variance? Weight? We would all like to know so we can add those improvements!

Whew...time for some lemonaid...its hot in here..

<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Mr Michael B

Bill (zcat), your a breath of fresh air my man.

"996" I wish I could elaborate here on the keyboard.

You know, I went to a car dealer years ago on a hunt for a 993 for a good friend. We drove a '95 that was a H O G. Then we drove a '96 that was FABULOUS. He bought the '96 on the spot & swears by them. I myself LOVE his '96. Back-to-back those two cars (that day) were night & day.

With that said however... Now comes a back-to-back comparo at a track (just as you originally asked). I did it, and find in favor of the '95.

The '95 certainly felt lighter. The gauge certainly read less oil temp. The varioram did not feel more powerful. All taken into consideration I see the '95 as a winner. Not that I see the '96 as a loser. I love the '96, as much as I love any 993 vintage.

Don't take my word for it though... Try it yourself & see like I did.

That would be as easy as Sunday morning!

Greg Fishman

Mike,
If you say that you could feel a difference, that is good enough for me. From the few conversations we have had about racing my guess is you are more than qualified to tell the difference if one car was faster or not. I am also sure that if there was anything wrong with the 96 that you would have felt it (alignment, misfire, etc).
Greg
(with 2 vario 993's)

P.S. I will take you up on the drag race just for fun if you are ever back in KY. Then you can really stir the pot with a 95 beating (or not) a widebody vario car.

Mr Michael B

Greg man, you know how it goes. Some cars just feel better, and in this case, the '95 most certainly did. I have liked all the '95's I have ever driven though.

As for the dragrace... Oh man, what have I done here? Your cars may be hard to beat! One caveat... At that dragrace in KY, I ran against a 993 TT on my 1st run, guess who won... Yup, my '95.

In defense of the TT: It had a start line "problem." I beat him to the "big end," but he came by me 12 MPH faster right after the finish line!! <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

It was glorious for the '95 that 1st 1/4 mile though! But... I think I will stick w/ road racing.

Greg Fishman

[quote]Originally posted by Michael B.:
[QB
As for the dragrace... Oh man, what have I done here? Your cars may be hard to beat!

But... I think I will stick w/ road racing. [/QB]<hr></blockquote>

I don't imagine either one of my cars will make anyone stand up and take notice at the drag strip. Now if I could borrow Anir's TT or Ducati...
Speaking of drag races did you see Lingefelter's lastest creation. 1/4 under 10 seconds at 150 mph. 0-60 in less than 2 seconds.
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

How far is Putnam Park for you? Or Gingerman? I will be instructing at several events at each over the summer, early fall and would like to meet you. I am instructing at a Ferrari event in August at Gingerman, friend told me about the event and said the hardware there was unbelievable. It is that regions annual track event. Aug16-18 if I remember correctly. If you are interested I can get you some contact info.
Several events at Putnam in Sept and early Oct as well.
I will try to get BJ Z to come as well. He is pretty busy with a GAC team though.
Greg

996FLT6

Darn MB, you must have a very special '95 993-to beat a 993 tt. Must be your day : ). I know at some point in time(wife is part of the equation) that I'll want 2 Porsche's in my garage. I thought of trading up for a 996tt but I think 2 porsche's is even more of an appetite(I'm salivating just at the thought) and certainly a 993(yellow/black-no frills C2 coupe) would be one of them and also with respect to the 930. I think a 95 would be more agreeable since it's a bit less then the 96 or later 993's. But then again who knows if I can scrounge enough money '96 is within reach. Great info altogether. Norman has already test drove the 96 993,RS america and the 964 turbo so I'm banking he'll go for a 96 one but he will first test drive a 95 993 before he makes a decision. Can't wait til he get's one- need some competition on the track : )(have yet to track against a 993). Thanks and happy regards. Mike

DJF1

Michael, do you think that the "faster" maybe because of the engine character of the 95? I have a 95 as well and I know that over 4 grand the engine transforms and it goes like a bat out of hell. Clearly Hank's torque conversion show a big difference in the high rpm side and i think a 95 on these rpm's may actually feel faster. Also I had posted a few months ago a dyno run that was done on my car that showed an average of 262hp on the rear wheels which given the loss factor on the crank would equate to some major hp. The racing shop that did this run which was organized by my PCA said that I have a very strong engine and seemed surprised by the results. While I'm not convinced that my car makes so much power above what is officially quoted by the factory, some people here on this board said that rumour has it that not all engines are coming out of the factory with the same exact hp or at least used to. I will throw again the not convinced statement about that but you never know. Maybe your engine is strong and the 96 car was not so.
I'm inclined to believe that because of the lack of torque on the low rpm's the 95 would feel faster than the 96 as the engine explodes like it has a turbo or something over 4000 so the acceleration feeling is heightened. In either case i love the way my 95 engine behaves and I would not want more torque lower or a flat torque curve...
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Mike J

When I did the Porsche factory tour in December, the guide told us that all engines have to be +-5% of their spec to be allowed out of the factory. Its because of some German regulations. This means that a 282HP engine can be from 267 - 296HP. Anything outside that range is taken back to the line to be "fixed".

Maybe I have a -5% one

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by ZCAT3:
<strong>Michael - now you are really starting to cause trouble. Next thing you'll do is say that the "S" cars are slower than the rest of them...QB]<hr></blockquote>

Sorry to cause problems but I've heard/read that actually that is the case (heavier & wider = slower), naturally, it's only minor difference, but anyway.

[quote]Originally posted by ZCAT3:
[QB]...that will really cause some problems. How can a cheaper car be faster?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think it's the price that matters, i.e. C4 is slower that C2, and if I'm correct, C4 costs more than C2. <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

996FLT6

Darn it MB and DJFR1- you got magic 95's. You selling : )?. I wish I could but not now. Someone on the 996 board dynod his 993 and it had 275 rwhp but don't know which year. Regards. Mike

Mr Michael B

Greg: I am all for a run to Putnam. I would love to instruct if they need the help! Keep me in the loop please. I did see that "bad" C5 Vette. I have it on tape & watch the thing launch as often as possible. Someone always has a bigger stick 'eh?

996: Man, your bud has great taste. I just sold a mind bending C2T a few mo. ago that was not only a rocket (12.01 sec 1/4 & 0-60 in 3) but also won the 2001 Parade concours (I was headed to Road America w/ it @ Parade, but after concours winning, I just took it home & sold it). It was "all that," but I do like the '95 993 better (go figure). Still, the C2T is a car that your pal should consider for sure.

DJF: I know what you mean. I think I recall reading about your dyno run. I have heard the "some left the factory stronger than others" story many times. I also think my car "hauls" as it runs up the RPM band, but I think that about varioram cars too. 993's in general are sweet.

Mike J.: Great info there. On the past post's, I don't know if it was just HP that I was feeling between the two cars last week. I am not even just thinking about a whole lap. It was/is just every nuance of the braking zone, or even taking a corner flat out, or what-have-ya. It feels real good. But again, both did. Still, like you said "always fun to discuss!"

Enjoy 'em all!

996FLT6

"S" cars are probably slower with reference to top speed because of drag due to wider body but I imagine the C2S is a little faster then the C4S due to lighter weight but definitely is compensated by the better suspension and wider stance on the track. But who the heck drives that high of speed anyway? Are there tracks that can go at that speed other then ovals and would you want to? At Thunderhill my max on a straight is 120 befoe the next turn. Regards. Mike