Tobeit

nice find. I watched a very similar video when AMG explained their C63s with e-turbo. They just went in a different direction for the rest, i.e. went from V8 to V4 and added a motor to the front axle. I am glad to see Porsche actually went with a 3.6lV8 and motor in PDK instead.

DocJD

As a newbie in the market…if a well optioned base may not be worth it, what do you all consider a bare minimum base? Just sports chrono?

thanks

autozero

Could not disagree more. If the "market" cared about the numbers, then we'd all be buying EVs which as you pointed out have the fastest acceleration. There is a segment of the market that cares about numbers and speed and there's a segment of the market that could care less (including me). That's why Porsche has so many trims. The Turbo S is the fastest current Porsche yet many would argue is one of the most boring in the lineup. The GT3 is a great example of a car that doesn't have the most power or straightline speed, yet many prefer it over the Turbo bc it's more stimulating to drive.

I'll say it again,I do not need more power for driving on the street, and therefore, I don't need more powerful engines especially ones that sacrifice emotion for speed. I deliberately bought a base 992 BECAUSE I want to be able to enjoy it more on the street and be able to rev the engine out and savor the revs in the top of the power band to redline. You can't do that in a S, GTS, etc on the street...

rasetsu

Why the need to disagree? You might not care about the numbers but it's a fact that the market, in general, absolutely does. You even say so yourself in explaining the reason for the existence of multiple trim levels. This is why Porsche launched a non-hybridized .2 base as well. It's not like the GTS will be or even is the only variant. No one is forcing anyone to buy a .2 GTS.

autozero

I absolutely need to be vocal that I disagree bc presently Porsche seems to only be listening to the portion of the market that cares about the numbers (hence why they emphasized Nurburgring lap times so much). You're basically saying only your opinion matters? Sorry but if you want an echo chamber with no debate then Rennlist isn't the place for you. This whole thread is advising the OP on getting a GTS vs. a base. I've already said, I applaud Porsche for building a hybrid and for offering different trims for different preferences. That said, it's important that Porsche also invest in trims for those of us who don't want a faster car (and therefore don't need more development of ICE) but still want modern design and infotainment tech.

rasetsu

Whoa, easy there pal.
Porsche launched a non-hybrid base version as well. Why are you glancing over that? You don't think what they did with the new .2 base was "investing" anything? You are debating yourself here.

autozero

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. It seems like you're saying only your opinion matters and is "factual," so no one else should disagree. I don't have to state the obvious on how asinine that is.

I have a current 992.1 base and I have an order for 992.2 base. Everyone who is in the same position as me is proof that numbers don't matter since the .2 base barely has any more hp.
It's okay for people to disagree on if numbers are important or not --- there's options for both so telling me that your opinion is the only one that matters is a moot point.

rasetsu

I think you are having an issue with following the flow of the comments. I never said nor did I imply that only my opinion matters. Believe me, I am not the that type of person. Please just cool your jets and read though. I was asking why you had to disagree to the following:

Originally Posted by wujax
The market cares about performance. They care about the intangibles like driving pleasure, the way the car feels in the corners, the beauty of the car, the legacy. But the market also cares about the numbers, As the industry moves forward you cannot let the car fall behind in the metrics else that will be a clear way to cause a downfall of the legend.
Could not disagree more.

Why are you disagreeing with a comment stating that the market cares about performance as a factor in car buying? You personally might not but Porsche is a company that wants to make money first and foremost. Porsche caters to different sets of people who buy their cars for different reasons and thus offers different variants. If the market, in general, truly didn't care about performance metrics, it would have been easier and cheaper for Porsche to handicap the .2 base without bothering to upgrade the induction hardware to meet emissions like when American auto makers did in the mid-70s to meet emissions updates then. Is that something you realize? The new base has hardware upgrades in order to maintain the general market expectation that it not make fewer horsepower. You can disagree about things all you want, but I'm also allowed to you ask why you are disagreeing about this in particular. Just because you disagree about something doesn't make it less true.

autozero

I think you're having a hard time understanding how a debate works. There's going to be those who agree and those that disagree. Someone made a point and I disagreed --- why then call me out for disagreeing?

I don't have enough data to definitively say one way or another that the market cares most about performance. Nor can I definitely say that either the market or Porsche should care most about performance. There are points and counterpoints that can be made to each assertion. The most expensive and coveted 911 right now explicitly did NOT focus on performance, the 911 S/T. It focuses on the driving experience which I APPLAUD Porsche for doing and shows exactly what makes them the most money --- not performance but driving emotion/experience.

wujax

I feel like rasetsu is getting the gist of my argument, autozero you are missing my point still

I'm conveying what I perceive as the general product strategy for the 911 and I think it's quite reasonable. As a sports car in the 100-200k segment, the car needs to possess attributes such as performance, luxury, practicality, style, etc. The product needs to continue making strides to keep up with and lead the market on the various attributes, otherwise the likes of the AMG GT's, will begin dominating the segment instead.

What YOU are conveying, is that you personally don't need these performance iterations because what they make now in the base 911 is enough. I respect that, and it's totally valid. I also have a 992 C2 and think it's enough for me. What doesn't make sense is to phrase your argument as 'I disagree with you" because I am arguing about what a reasonable product strategy would be, while you're telling me it's wrong because you think you, a niche enthusiast customer, represents the whole market. We are not having the same argument.

rasetsu

LOL!
Enjoy the rest of your day.

autozero

Wujax, I'll acknowledge that saying "I couldn't disagree more" could have been phrased less harshly. Anytime someone uses the word disagree, it gets people riled up even if there's merit in what's said and it creates a situation where one side is trying to win the argument or defend their position. Personally, I think it's perfectly fine to agree to disagree. That said, to be clear, I don't agree with the assertion that the market cares or should care most about performance. And I certainly invite anyone to share their perspective whether that be in agreement or not.

slwong23

Let's be real, you can't really rev out a base to redline on the street, either.

No one needs more power than the C2 offers, but clearly there is a large market that still wants it.

yrralis1

The pushback you are getting is because they hate dissent . I agree with you that so far there is no talk about the visceral aspects of the new car . faster may not be fun (IE .. the 718 4 cylinder that failed and is now vanished ) . There are some like me who agree that driving enjoyment is a huge factor of buying a sports car but the guy who only cares about the new shiny object wont hear it . He is blind to it .

wujax

Ok that's a fair thesis to debate. "What gets measured gets managed". The foremost metrics provided around a car are always a picture of the car, it's price, how much HP it has, and it's 0-60 time. These are the metrics that motorjournalism have popularized in the sports car. So now the consumer basically has a clear summary drawn for them. How much does it cost, and how fast is it for how much it costs. And as you read more in depth about the car, sure, you can get more nuanced. But those numbers are always the first and foremost, and is the reason why those are the numbers that you will always see generation over generation increase on. Unfortunately, we don't have a metric that describes the intangibles, for that we just have the read the whole article. But you see how the whole industry has now centered around all of this, and it has become very difficult to separate the value of a sports car from those numbers.

SHOULD we be focused on that? In that case, I agree we should not. But unfortunately hedonic adaptation is a thing. You always feel it, you feel the acceleration of a slightly faster car than yours and you then will probably want it. It takes a lot of discipline to draw the at the C2 and say this is enough. Power itself, especially as it becomes more effortless, is intoxicating and there really is no end to it. That's why tuners make 1000hp cars all the time. And that illustrates what would happen in the opposite case. Stepping into a tangibly slower car can be incredibly demoralizing. What I used to think was fine, my E90 335i, I now feel as severely deficient. My hedonic adaptation has already adjusted to the performance characteristics of a 992 and is now my new normal. There are plenty of people who think a 300hp 335i is enough for anybody. To walk in to a showroom and test drive your same model car but down in horsepower can easily be a deal breaker on the emotional side alone. Imagine millions of customers, on the edge of choosing to buy a car, only to be swayed by the feeling of "is it better". It's why people here often keep jumping up trims. So then the only choice is the new generation of car needs to be a step up from the previous, otherwise you would never get your existing customer base to upgrade.