wujax

none of the facts you’re saying are wrong, but I think the way you’re framing it makes it sounds like a conspiracy when in fact the progression of automotive development with respect to a
long term plan of sustainability has been pretty obvious and transparent. Environmental regulatory bodies have had their hands in the car industry for decades, foreign and domestic. You could either call it “handicapping ice” or stopping manufacturers from building 10mpg cars, it’s two sides of the same coin. Porsche has never been immune to regulations.

Tobeit

The new GTS beats all Porsche's best cars of the past except maybe the late model generation Turbo/Turbo S's. So, they still build the best cars they could...some parameters on how they go about it just had to change.

autozero

OEMs have more flexibility than they let on and they're starting to realize that EVs aren't the only answer as was incorrectly forecasted by some (mostly led by Elon Musk): https://www.thedrive.com/news/vw-is-...ar-development

If you read Porsche's press release for the hybrid 911 they emphasize that the hybrid was designed for performance not max emissions. I'd be shocked if the mpg for the 992.2 is that much improved over the predecessor and even if it is, it's a tiny impact in their overall emissions regulatory targets.

IMO the current ICE engines of today are perfectly fine and arguably at their peak --- OEMs should stop trying to chase more hp, speed and performance and instead focus on innovating around unique design elements, enriching the driving experience and incorporating the latest infotainment technology.

If Porsche or Mercedes or Lexus (or any OEM) simply provided a "new" car with the same ICE engine they use now but with a different design and more modern infotainment, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Jeff Whitten

Two key differences that affected our decision on going S. Suspension and interior options. Nicely optioned S with leather interior goodies, just over $200K. GTS stiffer suspension and interior “look” wasn’t a winner for us. Price was near the same. No GTS draw for us, in our 911 forever cars.

C4S cabriolet with PASM Sport, PDCC, RAS, FAL and Sport design body kit. GTS without the badging and nicer interior to our taste.

$2500 tune after no compromise in performance (518whp 91 octane).

Not a GTS hater. Macan GTS (2018 and 2023) some of the best cars we have owned. But loving our S based 911 Cabriolet and Targa.

Our choice. Yours may be different. Pick your budget. Configured the car you love. Enjoy.

Tobeit

Poverty GTS over optioned out base. Makes modifying the GTS aftermarket more fun too.

Jeff Whitten

Tuning options for 992.2 going to be interesting. First to jump in on this new hybrid configuration…..M-Engineering is my guess. Be interesting to see what they can squeeze out of this new configuration with hybrid motor in trans and electric turbo enhancements. Could be a monster of performance, for those that can squeeze out additional performance for this new hybrid config. Porsche historical conservative performance numbers, and solid bottom end, could be some even better numbers here. Makes me wonder what the Turbo S will be when released. Watching with interest…. But happy with our 992.1 911’s.

Tobeit

From a tuning perspective the 992.2 base is most interesting and probably available very quick - same engine but big turbos!
The GTS already packs 550hp and eboost turbo - here I would let other be the Guinea pig how tunes perform and last. Sounds complicated

Jeff Whitten

Totally agree it’s complicated on the hybrid. But if this is the direction, tuners will follow. Following with interest myself on who and what performance they can achieve over stock. Seems like good opportunity on hybrid components, but single turbo limited? Fun to watch.

Base is an easy tune as it doesn’t differ much from 992.1 in configuration with improved turbos. My C4S 91 octane tune 518whp is super fun. Amazed at the performance bump for $2500.

Tobeit

yeah, the base 992.2 is intriguing just for that potential. Porsche did half the work already to make it a monster performance car. The GTS - I will watch with interest from the sideline

yrralis1

Its faster but thats not the full picture . The 718 was faster too but no one bought it until they went NA (4.0 , Spyder, RS ) .

Either some you dont see it or you simply dont care about anything but chasing the latest and greatest shiny object . Outside of GT cars dont count on the 992 ever becoming a classic even though to date its the fastest and most expensive ,

So lets see....

1) The 718 is DONE ! !!https://www.carscoops.com/2024/06/co...-october-2025/
What was originally designed as a mid engine roadster is now a convertible golf cart . It wil be faster if thats all you care about .

2) The Macan is at end of life with ICE . It's already done in much of Europe and Australia . In the USA there are no real updates and they might toss a bone to keep it alive .

3) The Cayenne is at end of life with ICE . Plug in hybrids are the first weaning step towards EV . The few ICE models are the last .

6) The Panamera is the weaning process of the Taycan and despite its known depreciation even Porsche knows it held value more , I saw the internal papers . Just FYI the 911 is holding value the most.

7) The 911 is starting the process of weaning and picked "the sweet spot " to do it .

This is no conspiracy !!! It's really slowly heading to its end for Porsche and ICE . I have presented the facts , listed my sources , and the new shiny object is all some can see .

The EU voted in the strict mandates . The USA tried tightening only to be met with tremendous pushback from GM and Ford . At the state level several states have pushed back . Even in Europe Britain has pushed back (citing Brexit ) but the rest of Europe/Scandinavia/Asia are tied to ending ICE . Notice that the wold premiere for the EV Macan was held in Singapore because there are the most strict end to ICE (diesel out by 25 and Ice out by 30 -- cars wil not be registered ) . They chose Singapore because that is their market and the USA is NOT even though North America. was a powerhouse of Macan sales for the last 10 years .

Tobeit

What are you actually trying to tell us? That car manufacturers, including Porsche, slowly but surely move on from ICE...duh, would not have known that if you did not point that out.

wujax

That's questionable from a product decision. ICE cars are under pressure for performance now that EVs exist. So many videos of the Model S beating exotic cars in drag races, it doesn't look good to a portion of the market. This forum is an echo chamber of Porsche enthusiasts but the market is much larger than the nerds here. Think of all of the people who claim the corvette C8 is better why would you buy a 911 because "LoOk aT aLl the HP for so CHEEP". For a short amount of time, the legacy of the 911 name will carry the car sales even if it shows subpar performance numbers, but unless if the generations keep up the progress, it will quickly fall behind. Remember the product cycle of the 911...new full body refresh every ~8 years with a facelift in between that upgrades the powertrain. That means that if they don't take advantage of the facelift to make significant powertrain updates this time, the 911 will be stagnant powertrain wise for ~16 years, and by then the world will change and the 911 will be left in the dust. So strategically, revolutionizing the powertrain is mandatory every facelift cycle.

Now let's talk about what it would take to match an EV with an ICE. Your goal is to match both power and responsiveness, because both are very tangible in performance comparisons between cars. So the goal is, how do you produce a 900hp ICE car to keep up with the taycan turbo gt, model S plaid, etc.

• displacement - make a 7 liter engine that revs sky high, not going to happen in this day in age, too many rules, too inefficient, and not fitting with the 911 name. Pretty responsive, but anybody who has driven an EV will still tell you that it's not as responsive.
• boost - can be done, tuners do it, but you have a ton of turbo lag, car won't be drivable and won't give you the same responsive experience, still can't compare to the responsiveness of an EV
• Leverage electric motor to aid the initial takeoff and turbo spooling - now this works and is proven over this past decade. The GTS powertrain 0-60 doesn't tell the story in how much more responsive it is. There is actually a figure presented in the press release about how much more performant it is off the line. In the first 2.5 seconds, the 992.1 goes 14 meters whereas the 992.2 goes 21.5 meters. 6.5 meters! that's over 20 feet, 2 car lengths! Think back to your calculus, the integral of your velocity curve would indicate the car reached velocity much earlier than its predecessor. That's a huge leap forward and means that the initial pull from 0 is substantially faster, truly bridging the responsiveness gap between an ICE and an EV. The t-hybrid solution also substantially reduces turbo lag, so now you've basically solved multiple downsides to the pure ICE turbocharged solution towards 900+ hp, and you can prove that yes, this car is nearly just as responsive as an EV, and also much more enjoyable to drive.

The market cares about performance. They care about the intangibles like driving pleasure, the way the car feels in the corners, the beauty of the car, the legacy. But the market also cares about the numbers, As the industry moves forward you cannot let the car fall behind in the metrics else that will be a clear way to cause a downfall of the legend.

wujax

I agree, there's even more potential left on the table due to the lambda = 1 requirements. In the US tuners will likely unleash the top end power taken away due to those requirements. With 3.6 liters to work with there's probably a ton of power left at the top end.

Smoothoperator

should watch this before you decide which engine to go with

wujax

I happened to be watching that as well. Wow, that final conclusion is incredible, lambda = 1 doesn't compromise the engine's performance when coupled with an e-turbo because the increased size of the turbo allows for the greater power at top end, while at the same time the turbo being electrified solves for bottom end lag...incredible.