Porsche got it wrong I’ll explain
#16
that is only applicable to a very tiny group of people
most people consider it a hassle and if given the choice they would rather not drive at all .
and car companies cater to the masses like any other business
if you are a restaurant owner and make a dish that only 1 % of customer order . It can be the greatest dish you make. You take it off the menu
most people consider it a hassle and if given the choice they would rather not drive at all .
and car companies cater to the masses like any other business
if you are a restaurant owner and make a dish that only 1 % of customer order . It can be the greatest dish you make. You take it off the menu
#17
I'd argue that Tesla isn't getting away with it given their plummeting sales and inventory piling up.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/actual...ng-just-teslas
https://www.thedrive.com/news/actual...ng-just-teslas
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Res Ips (06-05-2024)
#18
Burning Brakes
#19
I’m waiting to get a ride in the one millionth robo taxi from Tesla sometime this year. Wait, what? Calling Nicole.
Meanwhile, back to Porsche. What I would love would be for them to retool back to the 993, make me a ‘98 C4S and just update the PCM to accommodate a Bluetooth connection to my iPhone and an 8” or so screen. Far fetched dream but possibly somewhat more likely than a million full self driving Tesla taxis anytime soon.
The no MT allows me to not honestly not want one. That feels very liberating. And my guess is the eventual release of a MT open air car will be either too expensive for my budget or unavailable to nobodies like me. I paid for the +3 maintenance package on this car as part of the “no ADM” deal, so I’ll be keeping it a while I think.
Meanwhile, back to Porsche. What I would love would be for them to retool back to the 993, make me a ‘98 C4S and just update the PCM to accommodate a Bluetooth connection to my iPhone and an 8” or so screen. Far fetched dream but possibly somewhat more likely than a million full self driving Tesla taxis anytime soon.
The no MT allows me to not honestly not want one. That feels very liberating. And my guess is the eventual release of a MT open air car will be either too expensive for my budget or unavailable to nobodies like me. I paid for the +3 maintenance package on this car as part of the “no ADM” deal, so I’ll be keeping it a while I think.
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johnohara (06-05-2024)
#20
that is only applicable to a very tiny group of people
most people consider it a hassle and if given the choice they would rather not drive at all .
and car companies cater to the masses like any other business
if you are a restaurant owner and make a dish that only 1 % of customer order . It can be the greatest dish you make. You take it off the menu
most people consider it a hassle and if given the choice they would rather not drive at all .
and car companies cater to the masses like any other business
if you are a restaurant owner and make a dish that only 1 % of customer order . It can be the greatest dish you make. You take it off the menu
Most, if not all, of the owners of a 911 do not view driving as a hassle.
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#21
I recently picked up a 2024 GTS, the first car I’ve configured to my liking, and my first Porsche. With all the chatter over the last few years about the GT4, and mid-engine Cayman balance, I was leaning towards that. But 2 things happened about 2 years ago. First, I drove a Cayman GTS 4.0 at PECLA for half a day, and while I liked the car, I didn’t love it. Great handling, but felt mainstream, power was average, and the interior felt dated. It felt a lot like a sports car version of my F87 BMW M2. Second, I rode with an instructor buddy at Thunderhill Raceway in his 992.1 Carrera S. And after that 20 min ride, I stopped thinking about GT4s altogether, and knew that my first P-car will be a 911, and a 992. I absolutely loved the interior - switch gear toggles, the curved and almost floating instrument cluster, no extraneous buttons like the 991s and earlier cars etc. The power, and how the car put it to the pavement, just felt right, and very industrial.
If that 992.1 was a 992.2, I would have probably felt close to the same. Yes, the instrument cluster does not have that curved, floating look; but, the rest of it is still quintessential 992. My only gripe with the .2 is the lack of a manual offering; but, that also gives me some relief as I won’t be coveting that car I really hope Porsche has at least one or two manual offerings that are not “limited” productions like the S/T or S/C, or just the GT3.
The drivetrain evolution from the 9A2 to the 9A3 is absolutely innovative, with a 100% performance focus. And I’ve absolutely enjoyed learning about it, and the thinking that went into it.
If that 992.1 was a 992.2, I would have probably felt close to the same. Yes, the instrument cluster does not have that curved, floating look; but, the rest of it is still quintessential 992. My only gripe with the .2 is the lack of a manual offering; but, that also gives me some relief as I won’t be coveting that car I really hope Porsche has at least one or two manual offerings that are not “limited” productions like the S/T or S/C, or just the GT3.
The drivetrain evolution from the 9A2 to the 9A3 is absolutely innovative, with a 100% performance focus. And I’ve absolutely enjoyed learning about it, and the thinking that went into it.
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#22
Rennlist Member
The connection drivers feel with an analog tach , the turning of a key, a manual transmission the sound of an engine is not related to age or nostalgia. The connection is human and connection inspires people of any age no matter how modern times have changed. .
When artists write songs most are still being written in guitars , pianos, drums that have not changed in centuries, even if iPads and computers are available that make the same sounds. No matter the genre you can go to any teen pop concert today and musicians are still playing those same instruments Mozart played.
when painters and designers work they do so with a pencil and physical paint like they did centuries ago to, not everything is done in an iPad.
if you look at driving as an art form (it is) it’s the exact same thing.
I think car manufacturers are getting it wrong by digitizing something that does not need to just because some focus group told them that’s what the new generation wants. Tesla gets away with it because it’s a new type of instrument. But to try change old instrument designs and digitize them for progress is wrong and removes the magic older people and younger people feel in a 911
When artists write songs most are still being written in guitars , pianos, drums that have not changed in centuries, even if iPads and computers are available that make the same sounds. No matter the genre you can go to any teen pop concert today and musicians are still playing those same instruments Mozart played.
when painters and designers work they do so with a pencil and physical paint like they did centuries ago to, not everything is done in an iPad.
if you look at driving as an art form (it is) it’s the exact same thing.
I think car manufacturers are getting it wrong by digitizing something that does not need to just because some focus group told them that’s what the new generation wants. Tesla gets away with it because it’s a new type of instrument. But to try change old instrument designs and digitize them for progress is wrong and removes the magic older people and younger people feel in a 911
#23
Rennlist Member
Every survey sent to me from Porsche regarding hybrid/EV power, I tell them I disagree or won't purchase a car with that source of power. Same with elimination of the manual.
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#24
Rennlist Member
Tesla has the best selling car in the world the Model Y that is self driving and fully digital. It works for them. The 911 is far from that and should stay that way is what I’m trying to say. The big digital screen became popular when Tesla demonstrated consumer loved if since 2012. The Cayenne can follow that concept , the 911 SHOULD NOT. Yamaha makes both acoustic and electric pianos
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#25
Drifting
They are priming the consumer for full EV, less engagement more electrical.
#26
Rennlist Member
I don't think decisions were made by focus groups.
I also don't think Porsche's plans are to make the 911 full EV. That would be suicide.
These decisions are being made by pubco managers with a fiduciary duty to deliver ever increasing profits.
Deleting the start key seems like a financial decision.
Deleting the analog tach seems like a financial decision.
Going hybrid seems like a competitive and compliance decision.
While I'm sure engineers do their best to balance requirements and KPIs imposed upon them, Porsche is no longer a driver-driven engineering firm.
It is a pubco focused on making money and their product decisions increasingly reflect that.
I also don't think Porsche's plans are to make the 911 full EV. That would be suicide.
These decisions are being made by pubco managers with a fiduciary duty to deliver ever increasing profits.
Deleting the start key seems like a financial decision.
Deleting the analog tach seems like a financial decision.
Going hybrid seems like a competitive and compliance decision.
While I'm sure engineers do their best to balance requirements and KPIs imposed upon them, Porsche is no longer a driver-driven engineering firm.
It is a pubco focused on making money and their product decisions increasingly reflect that.
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#27
Porsche sells approximately 11,000 911s a quarter worldwide. Only a small fraction of those are GT cars. The others have always been more comfortable, more tech, more assistants sports cars with some grand touring thrown in. Cars for dentists and doctors and finance types, not track rats.
Always. For decades. The overwhelming majority of Porsche customers are not like you.
Some much bitching. Don’t buy the car. But a gt3. Or a gt4. Or dip into a used car. Want legacy feel, just go buy legacy. The Porsche community has some of the best maintained broadest market for used cars of any marque.
In the mean time, I thank everyone who buys a hybrid 911 or EV Macan so Porsche makes a ton of money, and stays in Motorsport and keeps building the cars I want. 🥃
Always. For decades. The overwhelming majority of Porsche customers are not like you.
Some much bitching. Don’t buy the car. But a gt3. Or a gt4. Or dip into a used car. Want legacy feel, just go buy legacy. The Porsche community has some of the best maintained broadest market for used cars of any marque.
In the mean time, I thank everyone who buys a hybrid 911 or EV Macan so Porsche makes a ton of money, and stays in Motorsport and keeps building the cars I want. 🥃
#28
Advanced
Somewhat agree
Before I start to counter, I want to say that I agree what you said from a Rennlist enthusiast perspective.
I don’t think they are wrong. Actually no one knows until we see the net revenue figures for the .2 and compared it to the .1 or the 991.2.
I just do not like the directions that Porsche is heading. (They could very well be on track to achieve what they want to do).
Every car company needs to be profitable to be sustainable. What made Porsche unique in the past, ie. late 90s when AP started to work for the GT department, there were other priorities such as winning races, or carry on fun experiments that are engineering driven. While those other goals will hopefully lead to better profits, there was an understanding that profit isn’t then only aspect that counts. With the .2 we can clearly see decisions now tilted the other way.
BMW did the same from the F30 gen of cars. Dilute the ultimate driving machine, then more sales follow.
Interestingly, Toyota is now the other way around. In early 2000s there wasnt anything interesting. Akio just got annoyed at constantly hearing people complaining that Toyota makes only boring cars. Sure, the Supra, GR86 are not pure Toyotas (GR Yaris and Corolla are). From a profit perspective, it doesn’t make sense for Toyota to spend time and resource to develop these cars (just like how domestic have abandoned sedans). But they did it because they want to make something fun and interesting (and still be somewhat profitable with these small projects). These are the intangibles. These projects inspire young enthusiatic engineers. They also create loyal enthusiate followings (which are not immediately obvious on the balance sheet).
I don’t think they are wrong. Actually no one knows until we see the net revenue figures for the .2 and compared it to the .1 or the 991.2.
I just do not like the directions that Porsche is heading. (They could very well be on track to achieve what they want to do).
Every car company needs to be profitable to be sustainable. What made Porsche unique in the past, ie. late 90s when AP started to work for the GT department, there were other priorities such as winning races, or carry on fun experiments that are engineering driven. While those other goals will hopefully lead to better profits, there was an understanding that profit isn’t then only aspect that counts. With the .2 we can clearly see decisions now tilted the other way.
BMW did the same from the F30 gen of cars. Dilute the ultimate driving machine, then more sales follow.
Interestingly, Toyota is now the other way around. In early 2000s there wasnt anything interesting. Akio just got annoyed at constantly hearing people complaining that Toyota makes only boring cars. Sure, the Supra, GR86 are not pure Toyotas (GR Yaris and Corolla are). From a profit perspective, it doesn’t make sense for Toyota to spend time and resource to develop these cars (just like how domestic have abandoned sedans). But they did it because they want to make something fun and interesting (and still be somewhat profitable with these small projects). These are the intangibles. These projects inspire young enthusiatic engineers. They also create loyal enthusiate followings (which are not immediately obvious on the balance sheet).
#29
This is the whole thing. Taycan appeared to be a winner out of the gate but really crashed and burned afterwards. We see very of few of them on the road here in South Florida. I guess I am like the vast majority who has absolutely no intentions of purchasing an EV in forseeable future.
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russm535il (06-04-2024)
#30
Tesla has a problem with their crazy red pill leader. Whom a lot of buyers (eco democrats) disdain. They have anxiety over owning a Tesla. Just check the forums.
What else? Government regulation is driving ev, hybrid etc. Porsche has to meet fleet emissions standards. If you want a new GT3 touring you need to embrace the sale of t-hybrid pdk GTS cars.
Enjoy it while you can. I think there are good odds we'll see older in cars banned. Starting with California. Which is a shame because of that states strong classic car culture. Already seeing speed nanny legislation being successful.