When I looked at the sheets you posted I just noticed the date on the bumper work was in 2018, I suggested that it may have been damaged at the port or on the ship based on that date. It was just a possibility, since I didn't know or notice the other relevant dates in your case. You posted a disclosure that the dealer checked and signed, saying the car was not in an accident. You posted an RO that showed bumper work. Bumper refinishing does not mean a car was in an accident. Did the dealership sign a disclosure saying there was never any scratches or chips in either bumper that they felt warranted refinishing? Lets say the dealer elected not to fix whatever was wrong with the bumpers and you showed up to buy the car. Its pretty clear from your actions and bitching here that you would have accused them of lying about the car and complaining the car had scratches, a chip or a ding on the bumper.

How were you treated poorly? They made you an offer on your trade in which you didn't like. You substantiated your opinion the trade in car was worth more, and it appears they gave you more. Did you expect them not to make a profit on your car? The phrase "healthy profit" is subjective, what you think is a "healthy profit" others may not. Why would you get to be the arbiter of how much they're allowed to make on a car you sold them? If you were unhappy with the amount they ultimately gave you for your car, that was the time so speak up. Bitching and complaining and endlessly accusing them of being liars after you make the deal its too late.

You have determined that every dealer is a crook, every person at the dealership is a liar. With that attitude, nothing else matters, no matter what really happens at the dealership you're going to claim they lied. There are three sides to every story, his, hers and the truth.

Its a free country, and this is an open forum, I take zero issue with you posting your narrative of things, I take no issue with your right to believe every dealer is a crook and a liar. All I am doing is posting some actual facts which are all verifiable on line about the margins Porsche dealers work with. I am then exploiting your own gross exaggerations to demonstrate the holes in your accusations and implications that all dealers are liars.

 

Please don’t extend your sweeping negative generalizations to the Philadelphia region. We’re actually home to the oldest Porsche car club in the United States and as part of that history, we enjoy a remarkably high density of larger Porsche dealers. Heck, Al Holbert was from here and the Holbert racing team was based here.

 

I didn't accuse you of anything thing at all. What I did was point out that nearly every story you told here was either by your own admission exaggerated to make your point, or demonstrated by me using your own words to be an exaggeration to further your narrative. With those to points I then went back and applied what you've done 100% of the time to your story about the trade in value negotiation. I wasn't there, no one here was there, so all we're left to go on is your word. Unfortunately you clearly demonstrated that your word, with regard to dealerships is exaggerated and not truthful. No one here, including me is saying that everything from a dealership is 100% truthful, or everything from any business or person is 100% truthful. As I stated before, people lie, businesses lie, its human nature. The difference is you continually repeated that all the dealerships lie all the time.

I am not sure why you think its a good idea to dump on Philadelphia or the general area? Does it strengthen your case about every dealer being a liar? Does it some how give you new found credibility? Or, is it just some childish way of trying to attack me personally? In any event, you opinion is duly noted. I have to say... once again you're making a broad and negative generalization about a group of people with virtually nothing to back it up with. I guess that fits the way you operate and confuse your opinion with any actual real facts.

I happen to agree with you with regard to the bumpers. I would have liked to have known that the bumpers were refinished prior to purchasing the car. I also think the dealership was in the wrong for not disclosing that. Were I to be purchasing the car it would have had zero effect on my decision to buy or not. I have bought and sold enough cars that bumper work does not bother me. Had there been any paint work on the sheet metal, that would be a completely different story. By the letter of the law, you probably have a case if the disclosure says there was zero damage to the car. The only problem is, the available solutions to you are probably inconsequential and not worth the time and effort to pursue them.

 

I thoroughly enjoy your "it's pretty clear that you would say this". You don't know me, you know nothing about me, I've done nothing but post my experiences and observations based on past experience. I've admitted that some of those observations might be wrong or exaggerated, based on your information. You make stuff up and then say "it's clear this is what you do". I haven't done anything like what you said it's clear I would do. You're making excuses about bad behavior by a dealership because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I was not unhappy with the amount that they gave me for the car in trade, that's why I took the offer. As I've said a thousand times already and you have completely ignored, the lie was them saying they couldn't make a profit if they gave me any more than $36,000 on my car. Which clearly they did. Pick whatever adjective you want that suits your ridiculous standards (small? decent? infinitesimal? you are the arbiter of dealership profit margins, so you tell me), they made a profit on my trade in. I don't care that they made a profit, I care that they lied about saying they couldn't. The lie was saying that $36,000 was the real wholesale number, when apparently the real wholesale number was 17% higher. You excuse that, for reasons.

It's clear that this is going nowhere. You're making a ton of wild accusations and implications and exaggerations about what I've said. You take absolutely none of what I say as fact or truth, but I'm supposed to take all of what you say as fact or truth when you've exaggerated what I've said and attacked my honesty based on absolutely nothing.

I wonder if I wanted to sell my car to you if you would "bitch" if I had repainting done or a dent or chip and didn't tell you about it. Based on how absurd you're being here, I'm sure you would scream, yell and then sue me. Right? It's ok for you to make assumptions of my character and honesty, right? For the record, here's the disclosure again. It says the vehicle has not sustained damage, based on the report they gave me. Clearly it had sustained enough damage for 5.1 hours of repair and repainting. Who knows how serious that damage actually was, or what level of work is required. Maybe it was just a ding or a chip or something small. Maybe it was something bigger. Who knows. I don't care enough to go after them, my point was just that to me, that to me, counts as dishonesty. It doesn't to you, because it's a dealership, so whatever they do is excusable? I guess?

Lastly, I've had a great experience working with the service department at McKenna Porsche in Norwalk. I haven't dealt extensively with their sales team, only slightly, but their service department has been great. Their shop foreman Matt is fantastic, and the service manager Mel has also been excellent. Bryce is a service advisor who's been the most communicative and helpful of anyone I've dealt with in that capacity. I don't have exclusively bad things to say about dealerships. I've had good and bad experiences. Unfortunately, many experiences have been bad. If you believe I'm Satan when I go to a dealer, go ahead and contact those guys and see what they have to say. Contact Elizabeth at Porsche Carlsbad, see if she thinks I'm Satan. I'm not out to get dealerships or be a d**k to anyone, I'm just not naive enough to believe everything dealers tell me...because of experience.

And just to finish this up with 992 discounts, the point of this discussion was to point out that dealers make more than 8% on 992's. Whatever the actual total number is, it's more than 8%. Market conditions allow them to sell at 2-5% discounts, great, that's the market. Doesn't mean they couldn't discount more and still make a profit, however small or whatever adjective Trader decides is acceptable. Being informed about these kinds of things is the point of Rennlist and allows you to make smarter and more informed purchasing decisions and negotiations. I apologize to anyone offended by my exaggeration of the margins Porsche dealerships make. I'm going on vacation now.

 

I don’t know you, that’s a correct observation, that’s also exactly why I am careful not to blanket accuse you of anything. That’s exactly why I used your own words to make my point. You have demonstrated that you believe everything is bad behavior by a dealership and you’ve admitted to exaggerating often in order to make your point. All I do is point that out, apply it to the ridiculous blanket statements, you make about “worst in the world” or the people in the Phila area. Do you think parroting my words about a “narrative” strengthens your case?



If you’re not unhappy with the amount you traded the car far then why are you so unhappy about the fact the dealer made some money reselling it? As far as the arbiter of profit margins goes…. All I have done is tell you what margins exist, I have made no real comments about what is fair or what is a “healthy profit” only you are the one who keeps harping on how much a dealership should be allowed to make, only you are the one who has decided what a “fair profit” is and what a “healthy profit” is. That would make you the arbiter of margins and profit. What it makes me is someone who reported the facts about how much margin is available on a new car and pointing out you keep telling us how much should be fair. Of course, you never say how you come to that conclusion, and your fuzzy math on how much a dealer really makes on a new car sale is flawed. You keep saying the dealer lied but you want us to take your word for that even though you cannot offer any proof, you have been proven to exaggerate everything, and you made the deal anyway despite you claiming they lie.



I have made NO accusations about what you have said, I have made accusations about what you claim the dealer said. I have prefaced those accusations by using your own admission and words to show you’ve been untruthful in nearly every comment about the dealerships via your own exaggerations.



If you were to sell your car to me, I would know if it has had paint work. All I would care about is whether or not there was paint work on the sheet metal. My paint meter would tell me that. I could probably assess if the bumpers were painted by sight. If it was a substandard job I would know easily. If it was a well-done job, I wouldn’t care at all. I expect a used car to have a certain amount of scratches or chips and I am okay if they are repaired properly as long as its not in the sheet metal. As I said before, I agree with you, I feel they should have told you the bumpers were refinished.

I am glad you had a positive experience at a dealership. Up until now you have not had a single positive thing to say about any dealership or any employee of a dealership. You have used blanket insults to accuse not “a” dealership but “all” dealerships as being crooked. I am glad our long running conversation is helping you see at least some truth.

Finally, with regards to the 992 discounts. Some dealers make more than 8% on 992’s some dealers make less. It all depends on the discount and the dealer. I am going to quote you directly again…. You said this… “Whatever the actual total number is, it's more than 8%.” We both know that’s not exactly true. In some cases, sure it is, but there are plenty of cases where its not true. I don’t care what’s acceptable and I certainly don’t set the market for what is a fair or acceptable profit. You are the only one in the conversation who has ever said X amount of profit is fair, or X amount of profit is a “healthy profit”. Granted you have never explained how you re able to determine what is fair or healthy but you’re very clear on what you think is fair or healthy.

We’re heading out on a vacation ourselves. Safe travels!

 

There is a market in pork bellies, orange juice, and crude oil, but not so much in, say 2015 911.TT with options x, y, and z, and 23000 miles. So if you
trade it in for 100K and see it listed for 115K, you think you got a fair price, but if you trade it in for 100K and see it listed for 140K you think you did not get a good price.

 

I think you make a fair point. I would say that a $40k profit should not be attainable on a trade in vehicle.

I don't want to get into playing the % game. Its a whole different ballgame if you trade in a car for $8,ooo and sell it for $10,400. That's the only penny stock exercise, sure the stock you bought at .01 has a last trade at .02, you're up 100% big deal.

I also agree....Futures contracts are standardized, used cars are not. You can find two cars of the same year make and model, even same color and options but they're going to have different histories, and different wear and tear.

"The Duke's are trying to corner the OJ market, lets go get in on it"

 

Person X

Statement 1; 2; 3; -.5
Opinion = 1+2+3=6

Person Y

Statment 1-->A; 2-->B; 3-->C; -.5-->D
Opinion = [A,B,C,D]

 

I picked up my 992 CS2 order this past weekend with a discount of 4% off the 143k msrp. Pretty simple deal, the salesman was happy I’m sure a nice commission for him and I went home happy with a beautiful car!! No regrets

 

Lots of great info on the percentage discount people have gotten. But a question I have is on dealer handling fees - Most dealers have one.

When discussing the discount you have negotiated - how have you accounted for the fee? That is, is the percentage you negotiated include negotiating the fee away - or is it still an additional cost?

thanks!

 

Here in FL dealers can charge whatever they want for their "dealer fee" and except for one time I had to pay it. I recently ordered a G550 and I was able to get them to waive the $799 dealer fee but I am still paying sticker price.

 

I got 3.8% discount off a $132,950 build. Wasn’t charged a dealer fee. I’m in the SF Bay Area and probably could’ve gotten slightly bigger discount if I shopped around more, but I didn’t want to spend a lot of time looking at out of area dealers just to save a few hundred bucks. Happy with my deal and now just trying to be patient for my car to arrive.

 

Id point out the dealer fee but offer to pay it, asking for free first year's service and maybe a Porsche Jacket and hat(s) from their store that i like. Been there, done this.

 

Are you still at Porsche of the Main Line? I purchased a 718 Cayman there over the summer, but my sales person has since left. I'm considering upgrading to a 911 if there is a fair deal to be had. A few dealers have leftover 2018 and 2019 911 Carerra T's which they seem to be very aggressive on. Considering going this route. Still up in the air... as my base 718 is a blast!

 

Lots of extra noise in this thread.

I got a 8% discount on a new build, but I'm a repeat customer and have bought a bunch of cars from my local dealer and have a good relationship with them. I've steered some business their way as well. They've treated me well in the past.

Alot of this is market driven - it's very highly variable. When I was talking to Atlanta about a CPO GTS - they were not budging off their sticker, which was high. That car was priced not too far off what I was offered on a new build GTS at my local dealer a couple of years ago. Some dealers reward repeat, loyal customers and some dealers could not care less. To be a VIP at a high volume, fancy zip code dealer, you probably need to be a high roller - ie 918 owner.

I believe 3-4% is pretty standard and acceptable.