Originally Posted by Trader220

Porsche would ring their necks for advertising 9% off on all brand new un punched Cayennes. They can advertise a lease special which works out to 9% off but Porsche will ring their necks if they run an ad anywhere that says come on in and we are having a 9% off sale on all Cayennes. They're not allowed and Porsche is strict about it. It's almost pointless to have this discussion because from your post you already believe that every single dealer lies about everything.

Originally Posted by ianmSC

I traded the car in because I don't have the time to sell it privately, unfortunately. I do enjoy this attitude though: "We don't make that much money on cars, trust us...but also, who cares who much we make, take it or leave it"

In some cases, yes you do get to be the arbiter of their margins. You can choose to pay full price for clothing, or wait for a sale, right? Same thing with electronics and TV's etc. etc.

Car companies have decided to be in the business of negotiation, so yes, I do have some power over their margins, because that's what competition has allowed for. And again, I don't care about making a profit, but I do care about being lied to and I'd much prefer an honest and open conversation, instead of the usual conversation, which goes like this:

Me: "Hi, I'm interested in this 2020 911 Carrera S for $135,000. I'd like to get 9% off considering that's what I just got off on a 2019 Cayenne."

Dealer: "You have murdered my dog, sir, we lose money on this car, in fact, we lose money on every car we sell. Just looking that car costs us 10% of our profit, and our profit is 1% of 1%, plus kickbacks, which are $100 on every car. That is our entire profit, $100, that is how we pay our sales and support staff and the free snacks and coffee and expenses for this fabulous building"

Me: "Ok, well, I don't think that's true, you definitely don't lose money on cars. I expect you to make a profit, but pretending that you lose money and can't do any discounts is just inaccurate"

Dealer: "How dare you, we are losing $25,000 on this car. In fact, we lost $30,000 on the Cayenne we sold you, because we are a business, and that is how businesses lose money and the business owner of this dealership has a 918 Spyder and a GT2RS and a yacht and a $10 million house and four vacation homes. But he accomplishes that by losing money or making $100 a car"

Me: "I just can't believe that, what about 5% off, people on the Forums are repeatedly getting 5%"

Dealer: "Well those must be loss leader specials, we can't do that cause it costs us $19,000 to do a PDI car wash where we scratch the paint with used towels"

Me: "Ok, thanks, I'll just head out then"

Dealer: "God customers are just the worst"

If a dealership told me, hey, we make 20% on this car, but because we are in a business of supply and demand, and we believe there are enough customers willing to buy this car at a 5% discount instead of 10%, we're not going to discount it 10%. I would totally and completely understand that. And I'd say back, thanks for your honesty, and it's my choice whether I'm willing to pay the 5% or if I'm willing to wait and see if the discount gets bigger. But that's never the conversation, it's always the "we're losing money" crap.

And just for the record, maybe can we stop Porsche parroting this "KBB best resale FOREVER" nonsense, when their initial offer to a customer trading in a 2017 718 Cayman is for 53% off MSRP after 20 months and 21,000 miles. The car depreciated 47% in 20 months but you know, KBB resale!

Originally Posted by JCWLS3

Fellas, first of all... this has got to be one of the most entertaining threads I have read anywhere in years. The fact that at least two bona-fide Porsche retail employees are actively participating means I have learned more about Porsche sales reading these condensed posts than I have everywhere else for the last several years. So thanks.

I can only lend my personal experience, which is this.

We pre-ordered our 2019 CTT in January of 2018. We agreed to MSRP and $1,000 refundable deposit at our dealer. Understand, we were Porsche newbies at the time; my wife wanted the car in the worst way, as I'd offered it to her as an anniversary present. I wanted to make her happy, despite the fact that I'd never paid MSRP for a damned thing in my whole life. The last car we'd purchased, a new 2016 Chevy SS 6MT, was sold to us at 20 percent off MSRP during one of GM's heralded 20 percent off sales. No skill involved on my part; just lucked out.

Over time, the deal finalized into just under 4 percent off MSRP by the time we signed on the dotted line and took delivery in December of 2018. I was fine with the deal. Brand-new model, second delivery at our dealer, blah blah blah. I see all kinds of folks posting about eight to 12 percent discounts and beyond. I have no idea if they're true. And frankly I don't care. My wife loves her car, and so do I. I'm about to order a 992 at whatever discount I can finagle, which I expect to be four percent or less. Maybe much less. That's life.

I am a capitalist. I want our Porsche dealer to make a reasonable profit. I want our SA to take home a decent commission -- he's the same guy who has taken the time to answer all of our our silly questions, and handed us the keys to two brand-new 911s (991.2 and 992) to evaluate at our leisure. That costs money. I won't even talk about the time he put into us on our CTT, or the freebie spiffs he offered at the end (Porsche all-weather floormats; billet-aluminum Cayenne model that's worth at least $300 and elicits all sorts of oohs and office in my office on a regular basis; tint and keychains and other baubles which don't cost much but add up to real money for him). There are real people at all levels at our dealership who are working their asses off to support themselves and their families. I think it's selfish to try chip away at every last nickel of dealer profit so I can ride home saving a few thousand dollars at the expense of these folks. My wife and I come from very humble beginnings, and know what it is to work yourself to the bone in service to others to make a living.

We are blessed at every level. We are regular people who have worked hard; invested well; lived conservatively (at least, until recently when Porsche got its damned claws into us; effing damned company); and managed our money with success. We're in a financial position to buy cars that make zero sense on any rational level. I'll be damned if I'm gonna monetarily cut out the employees who have in many ways made the Porsche experience that much more enjoyable.

Will we pay a price that allows our dealer to make an unconscionable profit? No. Absolutely not. Conversely, will I be that guy who demands an extra two hundred bucks after the deal and trade are finalized, or I walk? Ridiculous. A good business deal for me has always been defined as one in which all parties are vaguely dissatisfied. I'm a hard negotiator, but I hope not an unfair one. With our prospective 992, I hope to continue the trend.

Thanks again for the great dialogue. I love this place. Go get a good deal, but don't forget real people are trying to make a living. It's a hard thing to do in any country, even these United States. Know this, and remember.

Originally Posted by ianmSC

You're right, that's exactly what they did, advertised a lease special that worked out to 9% off. I've been lied to by almost every dealership I've worked with, which is part of the problem. When they mark up money factors and lie to you about paint damage and repairs, give you $500 oil change quotes, lie to you about trade in values, resale value and tell you they're losing money on cars at 5% discounts, you learn to be extremely skeptical of what they're telling you.

Originally Posted by Trader220

I could care less if you believe me or not.

Originally Posted by Trader220

There is a HUGE difference between advertising Cayenne's at 9% off come on in, and having 1 lease special car that you back into a 9% discount. I can see that you're going to see a lie in everything said. You've predetermined that every person at every dealer is a liar. As I said, dealers who quote you $500 for an oil change don't last very long doing that, people aren't that stupid. Dealers cannot afford to scare off so many customers these days.

How do they lie to you about trade in values? its a negotiation. Anyone with an IQ of 80 or more and 20 minutes with a smart phone can tell you what 90% of the cars on the road are worth within a grand or two. There is no mystery in the price or trade in value of a used car these days.

Originally Posted by rick brooklyn

That means you care a great deal

Jokes aside, if I'm allowed a slight hijack, may I tap into your considerable wisdom - there's a thread on the 991 forum where some guy claims that you can get huge discounts on outgoing 2019 991.2s that are left on the lot. He says as much as 35%, because dealers are desperate to get rid of them before the end of the year. That sounds like a ridiculously exaggerated discount to me. What do you think?

Just to be clear: we're talking new, unpunched cars with delivery miles, not demos or similar.

Originally Posted by Trader220

Go look at where used 2019 991.2's are selling on autotrader or carguru's they're not 35% off. Dealers are not selling brand new un punched 2019's for 35% off either.

Originally Posted by ianmSC

I don't think that every person at every dealer is a liar, I think they're business people trying to make the most money possible, and often times the way to do that involves them feeling like they need to lie.

Exactly, there is no great mystery, so why does a dealer tell me they're going to list my used car for $50,000 when I went and saw every comparable car was listed for $54-55k? Because they lied to make me think this was the most they could possibly offer. Then they listed it at $54k. I have the screenshot. I will gladly send you whatever documents you need to see to prove that to you. I spent a long time looking at what the trade in value of my car should be, from multiple sources online, and expecting a reasonable markup from the dealer. And then they offered me $7-10k less than every online source and calculation said they should. Then they lied and said they wouldn't make any money selling my trade, and said I should take less in trade because I was getting a good deal on the car I was buying. One of the worst car selling strategies I've ever seen. I negotiated up and got it closer to what it should have been, to the point where it was no longer worth haggling about.

I don't know what to tell you, I live in Southern California, I have emailed or spoken to almost every single one of the 10-12 Porsche dealerships in Southern California. Every single one has given me the same lines, which I know aren't accurate. Some are better than others in their willingness to be MORE honest and forthcoming after I politely tell them that I understand much more about this process than they think I do. But many are extremely bad, and bad at lying. I don't think I'll ever go back to the dealership that I bought my current car from, because of their lies...but they had the car I wanted at the lowest price by a significant margin. So I had to deal with it. Hopefully on my next car I won't have to settle for another terrible experience, but who knows.

Originally Posted by ianmSC

Clearly you need to spend more time in LA, cause $250-275 an hour is the going rate here. So on a car that's discounted 9%, the dealership gets 1% in profit, plus their factory kickback, which is let's say 5%, so that's 6%, plus their lease kickback...what's that, another 1-2%, so their profit on a 9% discount is actually closer to 7-8%. That makes sense. That means the profit on a 911 that's discounted at 2%, which is what many dealers want to give you these days, for the same lease and kickback rate, is actually 13-14%. 14% is $18,900 on a $135,000 car. On a $200k GT3RS with a $20k ADM, 16% markup is $32,000 plus the $20k markup, or a $52,000 profit. Obviously there's not a high volume of those cars, but I mean...dealerships are making money.

What doesn't make sense is that the dealer is making 1% on a car. I'm not saying 9% isn't a good discount, I'm saying that what started this discussion was someone saying 8% is dealer markup on a 911. That is inaccurate. When all is said and done, it's closer to 15% or more, at a significant number of dealerships, as you yourself are saying. 10% + 0-5% with PCNA, assuming the best kickback rate, is 15%, plus whatever bank kickbacks they receive. You're agreeing with me, at least on that point. Most customers are uninformed of what to actually ask for, they hear 8% as total dealer profit, and ask for a 4% discount and think they've gotten a deal. 4% is actually 10-12% profit for the dealer. 9% is a good discount, as you say, but I'm the exception to the rule. So they're not making 1% margins, they're making much more.

The CPO thing just makes no sense, I'm looking at Macan Forum and someone purchased a 6 year, 60,000 mile warranty on a Macan for $3600 retail. So Porsche charges the dealer $3000 to CPO a 36 month lease return that sells after 3 months with 33 months of warranty left on it? Makes no sense. (https://www.macanforum.com/threads/o...rranty.168445/)

Originally Posted by Bloose993TT

I would work on building a relationship in person with the dealer you service your car at. Talk to a sales manager and stay in touch. Hopefully you won't have to call 10-12 dealers to find your next deal and can work with one that will treat you fairly and well.

Originally Posted by ianmSC

The CPO thing just makes no sense, I'm looking at Macan Forum and someone purchased a 6 year, 60,000 mile warranty on a Macan for $3600 retail. So Porsche charges the dealer $3000 to CPO a 36 month lease return that sells after 3 months with 33 months of warranty left on it? Makes no sense. (https://www.macanforum.com/threads/o...rranty.168445/)

Originally Posted by NachoRunner601

In my newbie attempt to re-rail this derailed thread...

Just wanted to let everyone know a dealership reached out to me this evening and in so many words stated...

”No one has bought/sold a 992 at a discount. This dealership can see the sales price of every Porsche sold both new and used and can confirm that no one has purchased a 992 at a discount”

...they immediately turned around and acted as though they were doing me an enormous solid by giving me 2% off MSRP. Since all their customers pay full MSRP for both current a custom built inventory.

So if you think you got a discount, there’s no way that has happened! /s