911ST
12-19-2023, 10:44 PM
#4711
Rennlist Member
People getting triggered by “parts bin” car is hard to understand (other than the implied criticism). This car seems to be the definition of a parts bin car - aren’t all these special models like that? I don’t see that as a bad thing (the bins are full of pretty nice stuff), and it doesn’t diminish the work they did on the suspension and interior package etc.
12-19-2023, 10:57 PM
#4712
Remember when the turbo four 718 came out - I logged off for 5 years after that LOL…..
People getting triggered by “parts bin” car is hard to understand (other than the implied criticism). This car seems to be the definition of a parts bin car - aren’t all these special models like that? I don’t see that as a bad thing (the bins are full of pretty nice stuff), and it doesn’t diminish the work they did on the suspension and interior package etc.
People getting triggered by “parts bin” car is hard to understand (other than the implied criticism). This car seems to be the definition of a parts bin car - aren’t all these special models like that? I don’t see that as a bad thing (the bins are full of pretty nice stuff), and it doesn’t diminish the work they did on the suspension and interior package etc.
12-19-2023, 11:18 PM
#4713
Meanwhile.... I was offered a Demon 170 today for a slight markup and passed.... for the exact same reason.... publicity stunt.
Views actually pretty decent up here.....
GTSR #15/100 final edition(actually back.up for sale from gentleman who bought it after I sold-
https://www.bjmotors.biz/2017-dodge-...on-c-13843.htm)
I agree, if you drove a GT3 MT then drove a Viper..... you'd be questioning all your prior life vehicle choices.
If I told you I have a late production ST spot and I'm still this critical, would it surprise you?
When you consider a $335k Heritage S/T has an MSRP $215k more than the $120k Carrera on which all 992s are primarily based, it's egregious. Especially when, say, a $335k 296 is a bespoke and far more complex vehicle with much more ultimate performance and cache.
Don't get me wrong...I would buy an S/T in a heartbeat (and have no interest at all in the 296). It's exactly what I want in a 911, and I've had 911s my whole life. But I am able to take a step back and see the bigger picture; I understand that is difficult for most here.
Don't get me wrong...I would buy an S/T in a heartbeat (and have no interest at all in the 296). It's exactly what I want in a 911, and I've had 911s my whole life. But I am able to take a step back and see the bigger picture; I understand that is difficult for most here.
The cost difference argument doesn't make sense to me. I'd be willing to bet the base model Audi Q8 shares as much, if not more in common with a Cayenne Turbo GT than a base 911 shares with an S/T.
So is it also egregious that while a base Audi Q8 is $70k a Cayenne Turbo GT is $198k? That's a 182% price increase. The Turbo GT isn't a limited run car either.
Base 911 is $118k and base S/T is $291k. 146% price increase. Using that logic is the S/T now a bargain? Especially when you consider future value (which I couldn't care less about).
I have no interest in paying ~$150k for a well spec'd base 911 but have all the interest in the world paying ~$330k for a well spec'd S/T. I don't think the S/T price is egregious at all. I think it's the first properly priced MSRP GT car Porsche has put out in quite some time
So is it also egregious that while a base Audi Q8 is $70k a Cayenne Turbo GT is $198k? That's a 182% price increase. The Turbo GT isn't a limited run car either.
Base 911 is $118k and base S/T is $291k. 146% price increase. Using that logic is the S/T now a bargain? Especially when you consider future value (which I couldn't care less about).
I have no interest in paying ~$150k for a well spec'd base 911 but have all the interest in the world paying ~$330k for a well spec'd S/T. I don't think the S/T price is egregious at all. I think it's the first properly priced MSRP GT car Porsche has put out in quite some time
I'm just a roofer though so forgive my simpleton math. Insurance companies usually just cut me checks and I just deposit them. The math is usually mathed for me. #mobties lol
How do you know how much R&D costs were associated with the bespoke carbon clutch and flywheel design? With the recalibration of the gearing as a result? How do you know the costs associated with the engineers tasked with a full year plus of dedicated time to the suspension dampening? The bespoke doors? The bespoke fenders? The recalibration of the steering rack from removing the RWS? The list goes on but I think you get my point. We both have no idea.
And as stated above, R&D costs do not have a direct line to vehicle MSRP. Of course there is some correlation. No one here has any idea how much time and money it took to develop the S/T. I'm willing to bet it was quite a bit. Just because some changes are subtle doesn't mean they don't cost considerable time and money.
And as stated above, R&D costs do not have a direct line to vehicle MSRP. Of course there is some correlation. No one here has any idea how much time and money it took to develop the S/T. I'm willing to bet it was quite a bit. Just because some changes are subtle doesn't mean they don't cost considerable time and money.
Last edited by Justaroofer; 12-19-2023 at 11:31 PM.
12-19-2023, 11:44 PM
#4714
Rennlist Member
And as stated above, R&D costs do not have a direct line to vehicle MSRP. Of course there is some correlation. No one here has any idea how much time and money it took to develop the S/T. I'm willing to bet it was quite a bit. Just because some changes are subtle doesn't mean they don't cost considerable time and money.
12-19-2023, 11:53 PM
#4715
That's exactly the point...the changes are subtle. The significant cost premium for the consumer is driven by perceived scarcity, not cost to manufacture. People here question why the 'parts bin' aspect is relevant...that's why. Again, when compared to something like the 296 for the same MSRP that is bespoke, far more complex requiring far more R&D, new platform, new engine, along with exclusivity. Going in circles now...my last post on the subject. Carry on...
I don't see how your argument for the 296 is analogous to the S/T. The 296 platform is a massive investment for Ferrari. All the R&D, time and money Ferrari put into a whole new car will pay off when they inevitably use that new tech, engine, etc in other cars (i.e. SF90, and others to come).
Agree to carry on
12-20-2023, 03:40 AM
#4716
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TOporschefan (12-20-2023)
12-20-2023, 03:49 AM
#4717
Here's another parts bin special from last year with all 25 owners no doubt struggling with price vs cost, their only motivation being exclusivity.
https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/...0-years-review
https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/...0-years-review
12-20-2023, 12:42 PM
#4718
^ Like I said, not everyone can step back and see the bigger picture. I said nothing about worth or future value. I said nothing derogatory about the S/T; I think it's perfection. I get that most people spending $300-400k on a 911 will consider the C2 a POS.
I am talking about cost to develop and manufacture in the context of being a 'parts bin' car, and why there is criticism. Take any common part from a Carrera...body in white, wiring loom, PASM dampers, etc...did the equivalent part number(s) on the S/T cost Porsche 150% more to develop and manufacture? No. Did the drivetrain cost 50% more to develop and manufacture than the GT3's? No. Again, compare it to a 296 that has the same MSRP, and what it must have cost to develop and manufacture.
I am talking about cost to develop and manufacture in the context of being a 'parts bin' car, and why there is criticism. Take any common part from a Carrera...body in white, wiring loom, PASM dampers, etc...did the equivalent part number(s) on the S/T cost Porsche 150% more to develop and manufacture? No. Did the drivetrain cost 50% more to develop and manufacture than the GT3's? No. Again, compare it to a 296 that has the same MSRP, and what it must have cost to develop and manufacture.
I canceled my 296 GTS order for the S/T as the S/T is a special, numbered car that by all accounts will be the pinnacle of the 992 range with manual gearbox etc etc. There will be many 296 GTS to choose from in a few years, unlike the S/T, and further I will pick up a GTS at a substantial discount to MSRP unlike the S/T where used choice will be limited and priced much higher than the GTS. I love both Ferrari and Porsche, have several of both, but with this comparison to the GTS, the S/T is clearly the more 'special' car to have as a long term keeper.
Last edited by carlom001; 12-20-2023 at 12:44 PM.
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12-20-2023, 02:20 PM
#4719
Rennlist Member
Here's another parts bin special from last year with all 25 owners no doubt struggling with price vs cost, their only motivation being exclusivity.
https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/...0-years-review
https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/...0-years-review
12-20-2023, 10:07 PM
#4720
Rennlist Member
12-21-2023, 01:57 AM
#4721
The bottom line here is Porsche is looking to cash in on what they know these cars will sell for. Look what happened with the 911R. Do you all think its fair that some scum bag dealer that treats customers like crap, gets to make $250K plus on the car? Or would it be better to go to Porsche who did all the work and spent all the money on R&D, manufacturing, Employee's etc? Id rather it go to Porsche so they can continue to make cool cars we all want. Look at what the next equivalent lambo, ferrari, or mclaren etc sell for. $300K is not out the realm.
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usctrojanGT3 (12-21-2023)
12-21-2023, 02:06 AM
#4723
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The bottom line here is Porsche is looking to cash in on what they know these cars will sell for. Look what happened with the 911R. Do you all think its fair that some scum bag dealer that treats customers like crap, gets to make $250K plus on the car? Or would it be better to go to Porsche who did all the work and spent all the money on R&D, manufacturing, Employee's etc? Id rather it go to Porsche so they can continue to make cool cars we all want. Look at what the next equivalent lambo, ferrari, or mclaren etc sell for. $300K is not out the realm.
Cars like the S/T, SC and really even run of the mill GT cars are backdoor ways for PAG to give dealers trunk money.
12-21-2023, 02:13 AM
#4724
12-21-2023, 03:14 AM
#4725
Unlike marques like Lamborghini, Ferrari, Mclaren, etc., Porsche dealers are stuck with selling mass market cars like the Macan, Cayenne, Panamera, etc. that actually take effort to sell.
Cars like the S/T, SC and really even run of the mill GT cars are backdoor ways for PAG to give dealers trunk money.
Cars like the S/T, SC and really even run of the mill GT cars are backdoor ways for PAG to give dealers trunk money.
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usctrojanGT3 (12-23-2023)