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New Z06 and 992 GT3 on the NRing

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Old 10-28-2021, 11:43 PM
  #451  
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Originally Posted by AllAboutThatP
I think the Z06 will be great for Porsche. If they underestimated it on the 992.1, you can bet they will pull out all the stops for .2. It will be very interesting to see if they have some tricks up their sleeve on the 3RS.
I’m worried about what may result from pulling out all the stops. We’re likely to end up with a faster but worse GT3 if they take this competition too seriously. Let the RS be the one to fight the competition (and it’s going to be going turbo and/or electric to do it soon enough).

Let the GT3 stay pure (and slower than the competition, if necessary).
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Old 10-29-2021, 10:47 AM
  #452  
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Originally Posted by GrantG
I’m worried about what may result from pulling out all the stops. We’re likely to end up with a faster but worse GT3 if they take this competition too seriously. Let the RS be the one to fight the competition (and it’s going to be going turbo and/or electric to do it soon enough).

Let the GT3 stay pure (and slower than the competition, if necessary).
Agreed, all good points!
Old 10-29-2021, 10:55 AM
  #453  
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Originally Posted by GrantG
I’m worried about what may result from pulling out all the stops. We’re likely to end up with a faster but worse GT3 if they take this competition too seriously. Let the RS be the one to fight the competition (and it’s going to be going turbo and/or electric to do it soon enough).

Let the GT3 stay pure (and slower than the competition, if necessary).
As long as there is both a GT3 and a GT3RS, I doubt there will be an issue. I think if they "pull out all the stops" as it were, it will be with the GT2RS and GT3RS The GT2RS is the halo car, and it will probably stay that way with the 992 series. It would be Porsche shooting themselves in the foot by making the GT3 the ultimate pure trackday car, because what would the GT3RS be then? I think the GT3 will stay a road car with some emphasis on track, but not morph into a full on trackday car like the RS.
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Old 10-29-2021, 01:08 PM
  #454  
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Relevance of lap time battle has to be about over, similar to hp war. Fun for manufacturer bragging rights and internet banter, but if you're making buying decisions on this basis you probably have a screw loose. Driven close to the limit, latest gens approach GT4 race pace with street tires and a 3 pt, fast enough.

Don't think Chevy mentioned any lap times in their promo materials, not even Milford. Focused on engine and experience. 992 has put down some lap times but prioritizes similarly. Both brands are on the right track.

If the C8 Z06 and 992.2 GT3 don't release any ring lap times at all, sales would be affected nil.
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Old 10-29-2021, 01:13 PM
  #455  
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Originally Posted by ParadiseGT3
Relevance of lap time battle has to be about over, similar to hp war. Fun for manufacturer bragging rights and internet banter, but if you're making buying decisions on this basis you probably have a screw loose. Driven close to the limit, latest gens approach GT4 race pace with street tires and a 3 pt, fast enough.

Don't think Chevy mentioned any lap times in their promo materials, not even Milford. Focused on engine and experience. 992 has put down some lap times but prioritizes similarly. Both brands are on the right track.

If the C8 Z06 and 992.2 GT3 don't release any ring lap times at all, sales would be affected nil.
I'd agree that if neither released lap times it wouldn't have any effect on sales. However, the reason GM didn't publish a Ring time is because the track was shutdown with an accident when they had clear track to make their attempt. They'll probably try again in spring.

I'd argue that lap times do matter though. If it came out that the 992 GT3 wasn't any faster than the outgoing car, that would definitely rain on the parade.

Last edited by G.Irish; 10-29-2021 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 10-29-2021, 01:32 PM
  #456  
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Originally Posted by G.Irish
If it came out that the 992 GT3 wasn't any faster than the outgoing car, that would definitely rain on the parade.
Would it? I'm not sure. If Porsche said here's a continuation of the outgoing model, with some updated tech, exterior/interior styling, adjustments that can help improve your driving and augment your experience/ability to get the most out of the car, believe the order banks would be equally full. I wouldn't be any less enthused.

I too remain interested in times and enjoy seeing objective progress, but mostly because I'm a track nerd. At current pace/lap times, experience matters so much more. I'd have the C8 Z06 or 992 formulas over low revving hybrids 1 minute faster around the ring.
Old 10-29-2021, 02:43 PM
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As long as tire technology keeps improving, new cars will always be posting faster lap times, even if there are no substantial changes to chassis, powertrain, aero, braking, etc.
Old 10-29-2021, 02:46 PM
  #458  
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Originally Posted by G.Irish
I'd argue that lap times do matter though. If it came out that the 992 GT3 wasn't any faster than the outgoing car, that would definitely rain on the parade.
Originally Posted by ParadiseGT3
Would it? I'm not sure. If Porsche said here's a continuation of the outgoing model, with some updated tech, exterior/interior styling, adjustments that can help improve your driving and augment your experience/ability to get the most out of the car, believe the order banks would be equally full. I wouldn't be any less enthused.

I too remain interested in times and enjoy seeing objective progress, but mostly because I'm a track nerd. At current pace/lap times, experience matters so much more. I'd have the C8 Z06 or 992 formulas over low revving hybrids 1 minute faster around the ring.
The internet would literally break if the 992 GT3 posted a slower 'Ring time than the 991.2 GT3.

Especially when PAG benchmarks their cars to hit specific Ring times even before it's actually put into production.

PAG's somewhat odd obsession with Ring times makes the possibility that having a new car run a slower track time than an outgoing version a nonstarter.
Old 10-29-2021, 03:21 PM
  #459  
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Originally Posted by ipse dixit
As long as tire technology keeps improving, new cars will always be posting faster lap times, even if there are no substantial changes to chassis, powertrain, aero, braking, etc.
Yes, tire tech already not given enough credit in most of these gen comparisons. Not suggesting new gens would be slower, but the claimed lap time gains are less and less relevant. Think most GT buyers would put a higher priority on maintaining/improving experience.

If the 992.2 runs a 6:49 vs the .1's 6:55, and the Z06 a 6:54, who really cares... Performance ceiling is already ridiculously high and out of reach for 99.x% of drivers.
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Old 10-29-2021, 06:33 PM
  #460  
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100% agree with this. I would love to see someone throw on a set of Cup 2 R's on a 918 and let it run the ring again. Bet it would have a much faster time than what was originally posted.
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Old 10-29-2021, 06:49 PM
  #461  
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Its obviously not apples to apples but my personal experience of driving Michelin PSS and Cup2s back to back in the same track with the same car (C7 ZR1) in the same conditions yielded "many seconds" of improvement.

So....

918 Spyder lapped nurburgring with Michelin Cup tires. These are from 2009, the original cup tires. The tire technology has improved so much since then, that I think if you were to put Cup2R tires on 918 Spyder the car will gain at least 1-1.5 seconds per 1 minute of Nurburgring lap (and this is a very pessimistic estimate). Also the track has been paved probably many times improving the surface.

I personally dont think there is a 31 second gap between a 997 4.0 GT3RS and 992 GT3. 997 car weighs 200 lbs less and makes 10 hp less. I bet more than half that difference in lap time is tires.

Also, Porsche is very nasty when it comes to making sure the newer tires never fit the older car. They make sure Cup2Rs will never fit on the 991.2 GT3 out of the box, I bet Michelin cant just make more tire sizes as they wish without upsetting Porsche. Imagine if some magazine tests a stock 991.2 GT3 PDK with Cup2R tires and posts a lap time 3-4 seconds from the new car. How would that look?

Last edited by 3-Pedals; 10-29-2021 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 10-30-2021, 05:41 AM
  #462  
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Originally Posted by DarthBalls
100% agree with this. I would love to see someone throw on a set of Cup 2 R's on a 918 and let it run the ring again. Bet it would have a much faster time than what was originally posted.
With the much improved smoother track I'd expect the 918 with the latest Cup Rs to be faster than any GT2 RS, about 6' 40s would be my guess.
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Old 10-30-2021, 10:29 AM
  #463  
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Originally Posted by 3-Pedals
918 Spyder lapped nurburgring with Michelin Cup tires. These are from 2009, the original cup tires. The tire technology has improved so much since then, that I think if you were to put Cup2R tires on 918 Spyder the car will gain at least 1-1.5 seconds per 1 minute of Nurburgring lap (and this is a very pessimistic estimate). Also the track has been paved probably many times improving the surface.

I personally dont think there is a 31 second gap between a 997 4.0 GT3RS and 992 GT3. 997 car weighs 200 lbs less and makes 10 hp less. I bet more than half that difference in lap time is tires.

Also, Porsche is very nasty when it comes to making sure the newer tires never fit the older car. They make sure Cup2Rs will never fit on the 991.2 GT3 out of the box, I bet Michelin cant just make more tire sizes as they wish without upsetting Porsche. Imagine if some magazine tests a stock 991.2 GT3 PDK with Cup2R tires and posts a lap time 3-4 seconds from the new car. How would that look?
Kern estimated the 992 would be 7-8 seconds faster than the 991.2 on equal tires, so figure ~1/2 the 17 second delta attributable to Cup 2 R.

Perhaps more reflective of the real world performance margin, Sport Auto's Gebhardt was 13.5 seconds faster with the 992 on Cup 2 R.

If/when the Z06 sets a time, that will be on equal generation Cup 2 R. Although, it's worth noting that's a tire you can actually spec with your Z06, so the compounding might differ some.
Old 10-30-2021, 03:05 PM
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Don't forget that the Ring has been repaved since the 918 set its lap time.

So aside from tire tech, the track itself is not a constant variable.
Old 10-30-2021, 03:27 PM
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Here's some interesting tidbits about the Z06 flat-plane crank engine.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/mainte...670hp-lt6-v-8/
13 details to know about the Z06’s 670-hp LT6 V-8Brandan Gillogly
28 October 2021
ShareChevroletWhen Chevrolet unveiled the 2023 Corvette Z06 at the Petersen Automotive Museum, several development engineers were on hand to answer our feverish questions. Corvette chief engineer Tadge Juechter fielded them with grace, but the man of the hour was Chevrolet small-block assistant chief engineer Dustin Gartner. A group of current Corvette owners was in attendance, and the nuts and bolts of the recently revealed LT6 and its astonishing 670-hp output—making it the most powerful production naturally aspirated V-8 ever—was all they wanted to talk about. The DOHC engine did indeed steal the show, and Gartner was a real sport about diving into its nitty-gritty details. Naturally, we pestered Gartner with our own questions to learn about some of the LT6’s details that weren’t in Chevrolet’s press release. Let’s take a look!
Dustin Gartner explains the intricacies of the LT6 V-8. Brandan Gillogly

The LT6 is nicknamed “Gemini”

ChevroletIf you watched Chevrolet’s launch video for the Z06, you likely caught a glimpse of a rocket that was very conspicuously placed on the engine’s front cover. In order to keep information from slipping by using any sort of identifiable nomenclature that might tip anyone off, engineers nicknamed the LT6 “Gemini.” It’s a nod to the Corvette’s link to NASA astronauts and a highlight that this Corvette team’s “moonshot”—a lofty goal to build a naturally aspirated V-8 that would surpass the LT4. In addition, Gemini is represented by the Roman numeral II to represent the constellation’s famous twins, and the LT6 has twin intake plenums and twin throttle bodies. The rocket cast into the engine’s front cover—which also has a Roman numeral II—is one among dozens of easter eggs found in the engine bay. Gartner didn’t tell us how many exactly but gave us a hint: “There are actually more inside the engine than outside.” The Gemini rocket is used on each piston and just about anywhere inside the engine where a part would need to be marked for proper installation orientation.

Five camshafts

Brandan GilloglyBrandan GilloglyYeah, there are two camshafts mounted above each cylinder head, each activating two valves per cylinder as you’d expect on a 32-valve V-8—but there’s also a camshaft mounted in the valley. This isn’t some kind of vestigial leftover from the small-block’s evolution to an overhead-cam valvetrain, either. Instead, this short, two-lobe cam drives a pair of high-pressure fuel pumps that each supply fuel for one bank’s direct injection system. Nestling the pumps in the valley between the cylinder heads and below the sizable intake manifold helped to muffle the noise inherent in those high-pressure pumps.

It has virtually nothing in common with Cadillac’s Blackwing V-8

Brandan GilloglySome early rumors indicated that the LT6 would be based on Cadillac’s twin-turbo V-8, which also happens to use DOHC architecture. That’s not the case. The block, heads, cams, and intake are all unique to the LT6, although there are some ancillary parts shared with other engines, like the twin 87-mm throttle bodies, which actually are found on the Blackwing V-8.

The pistons are made by CP Carrillo

Brandan GilloglyCP Carrillo is known in the aftermarket for making tough, reliable pistons for racing applications and the LT6 demanded lightweight, low-profile pistons that would survive at high engine speeds. CP Carrillo is one of the most esteemed aftermarket manufacturers and seems like a good partner for supplying a tough forging for the LT6.

Diamond-like carbon coatings are used on multiple engine surfaces

The LT6’s piston rings and mechanical finger followers are fully coated in diamond-like carbon (DLC). Brandan GilloglyDiamond-like carbon (DLC) coating gives metal a tough, thin, low-friction surface to reduce heat and wear. You will find it on many of the wear surfaces inside the LT6 including the mechanical finger followers, which transmit lift from the camshaft to the valve, and the piston rings.

It’s not designed for short service intervals with lots of maintenance

ChevroletGartner was adamant that the LT6 is not like a typical exotic car engine “that you have to take apart every 10,000 miles” for valvetrain adjustment or some kind of rebuild. “At the end of the day, this is a Chevy. Our expectations are that of any other Corvette we’ve sold.” Thank the DLC coating for part of that durability. “It’s long-term bulletproof,” Gartner said. “Even though we have a true mechanical valvetrain that’s lashed at the plant, the surface treatments, the DLC coating, and all our validation … it’s lashed for life.”

The LT6’s front damper is aluminum

ChevroletA flat-plane crank removes a lot of mass, somewhere in the range of 30 to 40 percent compared to a cross-plane unit. According to Gartner, the aluminum, viscous-filled front damper on the LT6, is also “drastically lighter” than an iron elastomer damper like the one found on the LT2. The rear flywheel-side damper is similar to the one on the LT2 but is also lighter.

It runs a 70° Celsius (158° F) thermostat and has an abundance of coolers

Brandan GilloglyBrandan GilloglyWhile the engine is designed to run around “mid-90s to 100° C” (as you’d expect), the thermostat is actually a bit cooler than most. “It’s hard to get this engine hot, hot.” Gartner said, noting that the two radiators on the side pods are dedicated to the engine and the transmission oils.

“The bulk of the hot coolant comes out of the engine, goes forward, gets cooled by three radiators, and comes back to the water pump. Most of that then goes to cool the engine. The water pump pulls off fresh coolant to the two side radiators, which then step it down even colder.” The driver-side heat exchanger is dedicated to the oil cooler, which circulates the coolant to the biggest engine oil cooler Chevrolet has ever installed. It keeps the 5W-50 oil—specifically selected because it provides ample lubrication and allowed engineers to optimize bearing widths—very cool. The passenger-side heat exchanger does the same but cools the transmission. “This is rock solid from a thermal perspective,” Gartner promised.

The intake and exhaust tuning virtually supercharge the engine

Each intake trumpet, shown here cut in half, was tuned individually to provide the best airflow. Brandan GilloglyThe plenum and large, tapered velocity stacks definitely work as intended and, as Gartner pointed out, are unique to each valve. At the engine’s 6300-rpm torque peak, volumetric efficiency is at 110 percent, and at the horsepower peak 2100 rpm later, it’s still 106 percent. What does more than 100 percent mean? Answer: Each cylinder is being crammed full of air so efficiently that it’s moving more air than the cylinder displaces. That’s possible by tuning the intake and exhaust tract so that the incoming air has enough momentum to cram air into the engine as the valves are closing.

The plenum is tuned for peak volumetric efficiency, most of the time

Brandan GilloglyThe twin plenums atop the LT6 work in unison by breathing through 87-mm throttle bodies. There’s also another set of valves that open up between the two plenums to allow them to truly work as one. Three equally-sized butterfly valves link the two sides of the plenum. Two of the three are linked together and the rear valve operates independently. Gartner explains: “At different speeds you want a different amount of communication between the two plenums to maximize the tuning at that speed. Otherwise, it would only want to tune at one engine frequency, one rpm. With the communicator valves, we can open up that tuning window where we get volumetric efficiency greater than one. Throughout the rpm band, those valves will change half a dozen times.”

That tuning will also vary depending on which drive mode has been selected. “We found at full load, if you’re tuning for max torque, you get a lot of good induction noise,” he said. That’s great for all-out performance, but it might be distracting if you’re cruising, so the communicator valves operate under a different schedule in Tour mode to keep things a bit more subdued.

Each engine will have a 20-minute dyno break-in cycle

Brandan GilloglyWhile the car will likely have a suggested 500-mile break-in period before it should be subjected to any all-out track shenanigans, the engine will already have a 20-minute dyno break-in where it’s warmed up and put through its paces and finally run at 7600-rpm for a WOT pull.

It uses a cartridge-style oil filter

Brandan GilloglyBeing the largest flat-plane V-8 in production means that there will be inevitable vibrations. Having a light rotating and reciprocating assembly will reduce the severity of these vibrations, but at some point, as Gartner put it, “you have to tolerate it.” A low-torque, spin-on oil filter canister is in danger of vibrating itself loose on an engine like this, so Chevrolet opted for a cartridge-style oil filter for the LT6.

The dry sump lets the crankshaft spin in a near-vacuum

Those spur gears are one of four stages of the dry sump system that evacuate oil and air from the crankcase. Two additional stages collect oil from the cylinder heads and front cover. Brandan GilloglyThe LT6’s bottom end is divided into four bays, one for each throw of the crankshaft, with each one isolated from the others. A pump pulls oil and air from each bay to evacuate oil. Not only does the crankshaft not have to whip through oil, which saps power, but at nearly 80 kPa of vacuum, it meets very little air resistance. A side benefit is that the arrangement keeps the rings at the bottom of their grooves as the pistons approach BDC for better sealing.

Two additional pumps pull oil from the front cover and the cylinder heads, but those are low-vacuum. The entire system is designed to put oil back into the tank so that it can be ready to be pumped out to where it’s needed. It’s not sitting around where it’s getting in the way or not doing any good. As Gartner explains, “At max engine speed, there’s more oil in the tank than at any other time.”
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