Pdk or manual
06-08-2014, 04:37 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
1analguy
That was an epic Freudian reply. But you got the wrong end of the stick. I was merely drawing attention to a different perspective in that manual vs automatic need not be a physical choice but that it could also be a mental choice - that's only relevant to those who want to have that choice and if they do then both PDK & manual offer that choice, one with synchronised physical effort & input, the other by a minor twitch of fingers.
That was an epic Freudian reply. But you got the wrong end of the stick. I was merely drawing attention to a different perspective in that manual vs automatic need not be a physical choice but that it could also be a mental choice - that's only relevant to those who want to have that choice and if they do then both PDK & manual offer that choice, one with synchronised physical effort & input, the other by a minor twitch of fingers.
06-08-2014, 05:23 PM
#62
Advanced
Here is my opinion. The manuals are great. Especially if you enjoy that feeling of being connected to the car - making every decision at every turn, speed, etc. There are times when you just can't beat the manual. I love manuals. That said, I am hooked on the PDK.
I would never buy a great sports care like Porsche with an automatic unless it was really something special. But the Porsche PDK is really something special. You can drive it "manually" (kind of), if you feel you need that connection temporarily, but the PDK seems to read my mind. It is like it "sees" the exit ramp and down shifts. It "sees" the intersection coming up, or the cars slowing down on the freeway in front of me. It knows when to upshift at just the right moment. I don't know how it does it. It is hard to explain, and I have to tell you that I have said to many people I know, "as hard as it is to believe, the best thing about this car is the transmission."
At the very least, drive a car with the PDK. And I mean really drive it. Don't take a "test drive." Either transmission is great, but the PDK is just incredibly awesome, and you are doing yourself a real disservice if you don't at least drive the PDK, once, aggressively. You won't go wrong with either transmission.
I would never buy a great sports care like Porsche with an automatic unless it was really something special. But the Porsche PDK is really something special. You can drive it "manually" (kind of), if you feel you need that connection temporarily, but the PDK seems to read my mind. It is like it "sees" the exit ramp and down shifts. It "sees" the intersection coming up, or the cars slowing down on the freeway in front of me. It knows when to upshift at just the right moment. I don't know how it does it. It is hard to explain, and I have to tell you that I have said to many people I know, "as hard as it is to believe, the best thing about this car is the transmission."
At the very least, drive a car with the PDK. And I mean really drive it. Don't take a "test drive." Either transmission is great, but the PDK is just incredibly awesome, and you are doing yourself a real disservice if you don't at least drive the PDK, once, aggressively. You won't go wrong with either transmission.
06-08-2014, 05:48 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
That said, I am hooked on the PDK.
I would never buy a great sports care like Porsche with an automatic unless it was really something special. But the Porsche PDK is really something special. You can drive it "manually" (kind of), if you feel you need that connection temporarily, but the PDK seems to read my mind. It is like it "sees" the exit ramp and down shifts. It "sees" the intersection coming up, or the cars slowing down on the freeway in front of me. It knows when to upshift at just the right moment. I don't know how it does it. It is hard to explain, and I have to tell you that I have said to many people I know, "as hard as it is to believe, the best thing about this car is the transmission."
At the very least, drive a car with the PDK. And I mean really drive it. Don't take a "test drive." Either transmission is great, but the PDK is just incredibly awesome, and you are doing yourself a real disservice if you don't at least drive the PDK, once, aggressively. You won't go wrong with either transmission.
I would never buy a great sports care like Porsche with an automatic unless it was really something special. But the Porsche PDK is really something special. You can drive it "manually" (kind of), if you feel you need that connection temporarily, but the PDK seems to read my mind. It is like it "sees" the exit ramp and down shifts. It "sees" the intersection coming up, or the cars slowing down on the freeway in front of me. It knows when to upshift at just the right moment. I don't know how it does it. It is hard to explain, and I have to tell you that I have said to many people I know, "as hard as it is to believe, the best thing about this car is the transmission."
At the very least, drive a car with the PDK. And I mean really drive it. Don't take a "test drive." Either transmission is great, but the PDK is just incredibly awesome, and you are doing yourself a real disservice if you don't at least drive the PDK, once, aggressively. You won't go wrong with either transmission.
I think we need to differentiate between a manual, an automatic, and automatic manual (like the PDK, or BMW D-CT, etc etc)...
I would *never* buy (another or any) performance car (actually any car for that matter) with an automatic transmission, if you want any sort of performance experience from them at all; their programming is typically optimized for fuel economy and they constantly short shift to attain that, even in sport mode many of them overlook the top of the rpm band ... unless you kickdown ... and then its simply an unrewarding pegging at the redline in the next lower gear ...
The PDK is as it says on the tin, a dual clutch (automated) manual transmission, (NO *** torque converter aka slush box) ... with very rapid shift times, and integrated into the cars many (stability management and other) sensors (which is seldom the case with any AT that I am aware of)
and ... in the case of the 991 the 7MT and the PDK boxes share a significant # of components, to the point where I think really the only difference is the gear
selector (cables in the case of the MT) and the presence of a manually actuated clutch ...
In short, I think in the 991 the two experiences are so similar, and the PDK programming is so good, that it probably obviates the MT completely ... with the exception of the 'stick stirring' and 'pedal pushing' ...
06-08-2014, 05:53 PM
#64
That's an interesting take on it, and perfectly valid...as long as you realize that "PDK in manual" is also slower than PDK in automatic. With that in mind, I think I may know where that overriding psychological need to shift for yourself is coming from.
I had the exact same need with my very first car. It was a 1964 Rambler Ambassador. I often shifted the 3-speed automatic transmission "manually" because, in the absence of a manual transmission I was, like you, desperate for some kind of involvement with the car...something to keep me from falling asleep at the wheel out of sheer boredom.
While I would never suggest that any Porsche with a PDK could bore you to sleep, it's still just a matter of degree. Once you free yourself of the fantasy that you're a race car driver who absolutely must save every possible thousandth of a second everywhere you go, and you remember that the car will always be faster in automatic mode, you begin to realize that all that finger twitching ("manual" shifting) that you're doing is just a desperate crying-out for the lost involvement that having a real manual transmission would afford you. If this was not the case, you'd never take that PDK out of auto mode. After all, there's nobody on here who's faster on the road or on the track with their PDK in "manual" mode...the whole point in the PDK is that the computer is always faster and always knows better, right? Yet, many (most?) PDK owners still catch themselves tickling those paddles in an almost pointless attempt to recapture a bit of what they've given up by opting out of a true manual transmission.
If you always run your PDK in automatic mode, then you're truly reaping the benefits of the technology: you don't have to shift, and the car is a bit faster because you let it do that for you...but, if you often run your PDK in "manual" mode, then all the blathering about the PDK's minor advantage in speed, while perfectly true, is nonetheless merely a rationalization for choosing the wrong transmission. Deep down, perhaps even unconsciously, you'd rather be shifting for yourself, but you are unable to, or are unwilling to commit to doing it full time, for whatever reason.
All the comments about "two hands on the wheel", carburetors, buggy whips, vinyl records, etc., are just a smoke screen attempt to distract those of us who chose the correct transmission (manual) for our needs/wants in the first place, and to try to make us feel inferior so we wouldn't notice how unhappy the paddle ticklers might actually be with their choice of a PDK. After all, they spent over $4,000US on the world's best automatic transmission...and then they intentionally interfere with its efficient operation. Why would they do that unless they were dissatisfied on some level?
Just speculating here. I've been full of poo before, and no doubt will be again. Obviously, everyone should get whatever they want and then enjoy the hell out of it.
I had the exact same need with my very first car. It was a 1964 Rambler Ambassador. I often shifted the 3-speed automatic transmission "manually" because, in the absence of a manual transmission I was, like you, desperate for some kind of involvement with the car...something to keep me from falling asleep at the wheel out of sheer boredom.
While I would never suggest that any Porsche with a PDK could bore you to sleep, it's still just a matter of degree. Once you free yourself of the fantasy that you're a race car driver who absolutely must save every possible thousandth of a second everywhere you go, and you remember that the car will always be faster in automatic mode, you begin to realize that all that finger twitching ("manual" shifting) that you're doing is just a desperate crying-out for the lost involvement that having a real manual transmission would afford you. If this was not the case, you'd never take that PDK out of auto mode. After all, there's nobody on here who's faster on the road or on the track with their PDK in "manual" mode...the whole point in the PDK is that the computer is always faster and always knows better, right? Yet, many (most?) PDK owners still catch themselves tickling those paddles in an almost pointless attempt to recapture a bit of what they've given up by opting out of a true manual transmission.
If you always run your PDK in automatic mode, then you're truly reaping the benefits of the technology: you don't have to shift, and the car is a bit faster because you let it do that for you...but, if you often run your PDK in "manual" mode, then all the blathering about the PDK's minor advantage in speed, while perfectly true, is nonetheless merely a rationalization for choosing the wrong transmission. Deep down, perhaps even unconsciously, you'd rather be shifting for yourself, but you are unable to, or are unwilling to commit to doing it full time, for whatever reason.
All the comments about "two hands on the wheel", carburetors, buggy whips, vinyl records, etc., are just a smoke screen attempt to distract those of us who chose the correct transmission (manual) for our needs/wants in the first place, and to try to make us feel inferior so we wouldn't notice how unhappy the paddle ticklers might actually be with their choice of a PDK. After all, they spent over $4,000US on the world's best automatic transmission...and then they intentionally interfere with its efficient operation. Why would they do that unless they were dissatisfied on some level?
Just speculating here. I've been full of poo before, and no doubt will be again. Obviously, everyone should get whatever they want and then enjoy the hell out of it.
And, you are extremely articulate...
Thank you
06-08-2014, 05:57 PM
#65
Drifting
That's an interesting take on it, and perfectly valid...as long as you realize that "PDK in manual" is also slower than PDK in automatic. With that in mind, I think I may know where that overriding psychological need to shift for yourself is coming from.
I had the exact same need with my very first car. It was a 1964 Rambler Ambassador. I often shifted the 3-speed automatic transmission "manually" because, in the absence of a manual transmission I was, like you, desperate for some kind of involvement with the car...something to keep me from falling asleep at the wheel out of sheer boredom.
While I would never suggest that any Porsche with a PDK could bore you to sleep, it's still just a matter of degree. Once you free yourself of the fantasy that you're a race car driver who absolutely must save every possible thousandth of a second everywhere you go, and you remember that the car will always be faster in automatic mode, you begin to realize that all that finger twitching ("manual" shifting) that you're doing is just a desperate crying-out for the lost involvement that having a real manual transmission would afford you. If this was not the case, you'd never take that PDK out of auto mode. After all, there's nobody on here who's faster on the road or on the track with their PDK in "manual" mode...the whole point in the PDK is that the computer is always faster and always knows better, right? Yet, many (most?) PDK owners still catch themselves tickling those paddles in an almost pointless attempt to recapture a bit of what they've given up by opting out of a true manual transmission.
If you always run your PDK in automatic mode, then you're truly reaping the benefits of the technology: you don't have to shift, and the car is a bit faster because you let it do that for you...but, if you often run your PDK in "manual" mode, then all the blathering about the PDK's minor advantage in speed, while perfectly true, is nonetheless merely a rationalization for choosing the wrong transmission. Deep down, perhaps even unconsciously, you'd rather be shifting for yourself, but you are unable to, or are unwilling to commit to doing it full time, for whatever reason.
All the comments about "two hands on the wheel", carburetors, buggy whips, vinyl records, etc., are just a smoke screen attempt to distract those of us who chose the correct transmission (manual) for our needs/wants in the first place, and to try to make us feel inferior so we wouldn't notice how unhappy the paddle ticklers might actually be with their choice of a PDK. After all, they spent over $4,000US on the world's best automatic transmission...and then they intentionally interfere with its efficient operation. Why would they do that unless they were dissatisfied on some level?
Just speculating here. I've been full of poo before, and no doubt will be again. Obviously, everyone should get whatever they want and then enjoy the hell out of it.
I had the exact same need with my very first car. It was a 1964 Rambler Ambassador. I often shifted the 3-speed automatic transmission "manually" because, in the absence of a manual transmission I was, like you, desperate for some kind of involvement with the car...something to keep me from falling asleep at the wheel out of sheer boredom.
While I would never suggest that any Porsche with a PDK could bore you to sleep, it's still just a matter of degree. Once you free yourself of the fantasy that you're a race car driver who absolutely must save every possible thousandth of a second everywhere you go, and you remember that the car will always be faster in automatic mode, you begin to realize that all that finger twitching ("manual" shifting) that you're doing is just a desperate crying-out for the lost involvement that having a real manual transmission would afford you. If this was not the case, you'd never take that PDK out of auto mode. After all, there's nobody on here who's faster on the road or on the track with their PDK in "manual" mode...the whole point in the PDK is that the computer is always faster and always knows better, right? Yet, many (most?) PDK owners still catch themselves tickling those paddles in an almost pointless attempt to recapture a bit of what they've given up by opting out of a true manual transmission.
If you always run your PDK in automatic mode, then you're truly reaping the benefits of the technology: you don't have to shift, and the car is a bit faster because you let it do that for you...but, if you often run your PDK in "manual" mode, then all the blathering about the PDK's minor advantage in speed, while perfectly true, is nonetheless merely a rationalization for choosing the wrong transmission. Deep down, perhaps even unconsciously, you'd rather be shifting for yourself, but you are unable to, or are unwilling to commit to doing it full time, for whatever reason.
All the comments about "two hands on the wheel", carburetors, buggy whips, vinyl records, etc., are just a smoke screen attempt to distract those of us who chose the correct transmission (manual) for our needs/wants in the first place, and to try to make us feel inferior so we wouldn't notice how unhappy the paddle ticklers might actually be with their choice of a PDK. After all, they spent over $4,000US on the world's best automatic transmission...and then they intentionally interfere with its efficient operation. Why would they do that unless they were dissatisfied on some level?
Just speculating here. I've been full of poo before, and no doubt will be again. Obviously, everyone should get whatever they want and then enjoy the hell out of it.
06-08-2014, 08:33 PM
#67
That's an interesting take on it, and perfectly valid...as long as you realize that "PDK in manual" is also slower than PDK in automatic. With that in mind, I think I may know where that overriding psychological need to shift for yourself is coming from.
I had the exact same need with my very first car. It was a 1964 Rambler Ambassador. I often shifted the 3-speed automatic transmission "manually" because, in the absence of a manual transmission I was, like you, desperate for some kind of involvement with the car...something to keep me from falling asleep at the wheel out of sheer boredom.
While I would never suggest that any Porsche with a PDK could bore you to sleep, it's still just a matter of degree. Once you free yourself of the fantasy that you're a race car driver who absolutely must save every possible thousandth of a second everywhere you go, and you remember that the car will always be faster in automatic mode, you begin to realize that all that finger twitching ("manual" shifting) that you're doing is just a desperate crying-out for the lost involvement that having a real manual transmission would afford you. If this was not the case, you'd never take that PDK out of auto mode. After all, there's nobody on here who's faster on the road or on the track with their PDK in "manual" mode...the whole point in the PDK is that the computer is always faster and always knows better, right? Yet, many (most?) PDK owners still catch themselves tickling those paddles in an almost pointless attempt to recapture a bit of what they've given up by opting out of a true manual transmission.
If you always run your PDK in automatic mode, then you're truly reaping the benefits of the technology: you don't have to shift, and the car is a bit faster because you let it do that for you...but, if you often run your PDK in "manual" mode, then all the blathering about the PDK's minor advantage in speed, while perfectly true, is nonetheless merely a rationalization for choosing the wrong transmission. Deep down, perhaps even unconsciously, you'd rather be shifting for yourself, but you are unable to, or are unwilling to commit to doing it full time, for whatever reason.
All the comments about "two hands on the wheel", carburetors, buggy whips, vinyl records, etc., are just a smoke screen attempt to distract those of us who chose the correct transmission (manual) for our needs/wants in the first place, and to try to make us feel inferior so we wouldn't notice how unhappy the paddle ticklers might actually be with their choice of a PDK. After all, they spent over $4,000US on the world's best automatic transmission...and then they intentionally interfere with its efficient operation. Why would they do that unless they were dissatisfied on some level?
Just speculating here. I've been full of poo before, and no doubt will be again. Obviously, everyone should get whatever they want and then enjoy the hell out of it.
I had the exact same need with my very first car. It was a 1964 Rambler Ambassador. I often shifted the 3-speed automatic transmission "manually" because, in the absence of a manual transmission I was, like you, desperate for some kind of involvement with the car...something to keep me from falling asleep at the wheel out of sheer boredom.
While I would never suggest that any Porsche with a PDK could bore you to sleep, it's still just a matter of degree. Once you free yourself of the fantasy that you're a race car driver who absolutely must save every possible thousandth of a second everywhere you go, and you remember that the car will always be faster in automatic mode, you begin to realize that all that finger twitching ("manual" shifting) that you're doing is just a desperate crying-out for the lost involvement that having a real manual transmission would afford you. If this was not the case, you'd never take that PDK out of auto mode. After all, there's nobody on here who's faster on the road or on the track with their PDK in "manual" mode...the whole point in the PDK is that the computer is always faster and always knows better, right? Yet, many (most?) PDK owners still catch themselves tickling those paddles in an almost pointless attempt to recapture a bit of what they've given up by opting out of a true manual transmission.
If you always run your PDK in automatic mode, then you're truly reaping the benefits of the technology: you don't have to shift, and the car is a bit faster because you let it do that for you...but, if you often run your PDK in "manual" mode, then all the blathering about the PDK's minor advantage in speed, while perfectly true, is nonetheless merely a rationalization for choosing the wrong transmission. Deep down, perhaps even unconsciously, you'd rather be shifting for yourself, but you are unable to, or are unwilling to commit to doing it full time, for whatever reason.
All the comments about "two hands on the wheel", carburetors, buggy whips, vinyl records, etc., are just a smoke screen attempt to distract those of us who chose the correct transmission (manual) for our needs/wants in the first place, and to try to make us feel inferior so we wouldn't notice how unhappy the paddle ticklers might actually be with their choice of a PDK. After all, they spent over $4,000US on the world's best automatic transmission...and then they intentionally interfere with its efficient operation. Why would they do that unless they were dissatisfied on some level?
Just speculating here. I've been full of poo before, and no doubt will be again. Obviously, everyone should get whatever they want and then enjoy the hell out of it.
I've seen videos where people driving PDK/automatics put their hand on the gear selector even in auto mode because they want to shift themselves (not pushing a button or a flappy paddle), but they can't b/c they're driving an automatic sports car.
The point of any sports car, but especially Porsche isn't to pretend you're a F1 driver or get the fastest 0-60 or lap time, but to savor the connection w/the car, the handling, and most of all enjoy driving it. There are plenty of cars for the same price or cheaper that are faster at 0-60 or various others measures than a 911, but I'd think a big reason for people still buying the car is how you feel driving it.
The feeling and fun of pushing buttons or flappy paddles isn't as enjoyable as shifting yourself, revving the engine yourself and choosing your own gear (not forced sequential).
I read a review where the reviewer said he put the PDK back in full auto when he realized his involvement was slowing the car down. How long before even having manual options are gone in the name of "only the fastest will do"?
06-08-2014, 09:41 PM
#68
Exactly!
I've seen videos where people driving PDK/automatics put their hand on the gear selector even in auto mode because they want to shift themselves (not pushing a button or a flappy paddle), but they can't b/c they're driving an automatic sports car.
The point of any sports car, but especially Porsche isn't to pretend you're a F1 driver or get the fastest 0-60 or lap time, but to savor the connection w/the car, the handling, and most of all enjoy driving it. There are plenty of cars for the same price or cheaper that are faster at 0-60 or various others measures than a 911, but I'd think a big reason for people still buying the car is how you feel driving it.
The feeling and fun of pushing buttons or flappy paddles isn't as enjoyable as shifting yourself, revving the engine yourself and choosing your own gear (not forced sequential).
I read a review where the reviewer said he put the PDK back in full auto when he realized his involvement was slowing the car down. How long before even having manual options are gone in the name of "only the fastest will do"?
I've seen videos where people driving PDK/automatics put their hand on the gear selector even in auto mode because they want to shift themselves (not pushing a button or a flappy paddle), but they can't b/c they're driving an automatic sports car.
The point of any sports car, but especially Porsche isn't to pretend you're a F1 driver or get the fastest 0-60 or lap time, but to savor the connection w/the car, the handling, and most of all enjoy driving it. There are plenty of cars for the same price or cheaper that are faster at 0-60 or various others measures than a 911, but I'd think a big reason for people still buying the car is how you feel driving it.
The feeling and fun of pushing buttons or flappy paddles isn't as enjoyable as shifting yourself, revving the engine yourself and choosing your own gear (not forced sequential).
I read a review where the reviewer said he put the PDK back in full auto when he realized his involvement was slowing the car down. How long before even having manual options are gone in the name of "only the fastest will do"?
06-08-2014, 11:24 PM
#70
All the comments about "two hands on the wheel", carburetors, buggy whips, vinyl records, etc., are just a smoke screen attempt to distract those of us who chose the correct transmission (manual) for our needs/wants in the first place, and to try to make us feel inferior so we wouldn't notice how unhappy the paddle ticklers might actually be with their choice of a PDK. After all, they spent over $4,000US on the world's best automatic transmission...and then they intentionally interfere with its efficient operation. Why would they do that unless they were dissatisfied on some level?
06-08-2014, 11:54 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
The best piece I have read in recent years about why some people prefer a manual was written by Sam Smith: see the latest issue of R&T (June 2014, pg 42).
I do not disagree whatsoever that PDK is a near-preternatural transmission, but it is not for me.
06-09-2014, 08:53 AM
#72
Drifting
C'mon man, you can do better than that. At least throw in some meaningful analogies like hand crank engines and manual windows.
Last edited by GSIRM3; 06-09-2014 at 10:42 AM.
06-09-2014, 02:43 PM
#74
Instructor
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: S.E. Wisconsin, U.S.A.
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1analguy
That was an epic Freudian reply. But you got the wrong end of the stick. I was merely drawing attention to a different perspective in that manual vs automatic need not be a physical choice but that it could also be a mental choice - that's only relevant to those who want to have that choice and if they do then both PDK & manual offer that choice, one with synchronised physical effort & input, the other by a minor twitch of fingers.
That was an epic Freudian reply. But you got the wrong end of the stick. I was merely drawing attention to a different perspective in that manual vs automatic need not be a physical choice but that it could also be a mental choice - that's only relevant to those who want to have that choice and if they do then both PDK & manual offer that choice, one with synchronised physical effort & input, the other by a minor twitch of fingers.
No...thank you!
I read that piece. It was classic. Somewhere in it, he asked the question "would you rather ride to 60 in 3.0 seconds, or drive there in 3.2?", or words to that effect. Succinct, no?
06-09-2014, 03:21 PM
#75
Three Wheelin'
As was Charlie chaplains depiction of modern times where he walks out of the factory with a nervous twitch as if he is still tightening nuts and bolts even though it is an unnecessary act as there are no tools in his hand or bolts in the air to tighten up!
I think we are giving this debate an interesting twist!
I think we are giving this debate an interesting twist!