chuck911

Neanicu, hard to be sure you're saying that BMW sucks, but if so then I have to ask, why? Quite a lot of people could really benefit from being able to sit behind the wheel of their car, learning how its done by watching the car do it. Honestly, it looks like a terrific way of learning skills most people would be afraid of trying any other way!

Its already bad enough the way MT proponents seem unable to comprehend that shifting is at best one small element of driving- and an extremely small element, at that. If on top of that they hate really cool technological advances like this self-drifting BMW, well then it gets to sounding positively luddite.

Mondrian

Chuck ... Please be fair and use the correct terminology, neo-luddite since they do like some abbreviated aids.

chuck911

The question of which one a person prefers and why is completely subjective. As soon as the subject veers away from personal preference into particular areas then the standards quickly become very objective indeed.

The claim of being connected to the car, for example. Every instructor on every track everywhere in the world teaches the importance of keeping contact with the seat, keeping the body upright and motionless, keeping both hands on the wheel, etc. Removing one hand from the wheel, moving one arm and one leg around, not to mention messing with the throttle and screwing up braking with heel and toe, all of them objectively and demonstrably interfere with the drivers connection with the car.

People can still love the MT. For whatever reason, or no reason at all. In fact, since so many of the 'reasons' given collapse under scrutiny, its probably better that way.

chuck911

Good one! Going on 3 years RL I have yet to see one person lament the loss of driver control from ABS.* No whining about PTV. There's a whole thread on the 991/991S differences and not one person with anything good to say about how Porsche so wisely offers this car with good old-fashioned one-setting shocks.

*Anyone care to guess what I'm talking about? Anyone? Beuller? Hint: its a big deal in a spin.

bccars

Because DRIVING a car is:
- speeding up : throttle pedal
- slowing down : brake pedal
- taking bends L/R : steering wheel

That's how a driver controls the car

Shifting itself is just a useless subroutine that has absolutely nothing to do with (performance) driving

bccars

+1
so much connection to the car is lost when shifting manually ! I really can't wrap my head around it why some MT lovers can't see that and keep telling everyone to get a MT to feel connected to and in control of the car, while in fact the opposite is true.

maxpowers

That's not the only way a driver controls a car. You also control the gears. 1st gear = greatest power, lowest top speed, 6th gear = lowest power, highest top speed. Deciding when to be in each gear is a huge part of the please of driving and greatly affects how the car behaves. It keeps you in tune with car b/c you're aware of your speed, rpm, and what you're trying to accomplish.

If shifting has "nothing to do with performance" then we'll race to 100 mph where you stay in 1st the whole time. Or we can race where you start in 7th gear. That is a flat out of factually wrong statement. Nothing subjective there.

VIC_50th

Noah Fect

After we do that, let's hold another race to 100 mph where you leave your spark timing set at 5 degrees BTDC and I'll adjust mine manually for best performance versus RPM. Then we can argue about how much "involvement" and "engagement" and "interaction" I will lose when I order my next car with Porsche Automatische Gespitzensparkenclockenspiel.

Mr. Thirsty

PDK

Vaf

I was nervous about ordering with PDK, but did eventually. I have always had MT until now. This car loses none of the fun and actually keeps my hands on the wheel much better under spirited conditions. Loving this car, C4S Cab with PDK, seat belts, and ABS!

maxpowers

That's a different non-logical argument.

I was answering his specific, factually incorrect point, which was that

Why do you want to steer and work the brakes if a computer can do it better? Do you also want to start your car with a handcrank? That's the same reasoning you're using. I also don't understand why the PDK comes with paddles when the car can figure out shifting points much better than a human and PDK buyers don't care (or apparently understand) controlling gears.

Driving a sports car means controlling
1. Steering
2. Brakes
3. Gearshift

Take any of those away and you've ruined the sports car experience.

The nonsensical, saying you want to control what gear you're in is like manually adjusting sparkplugs or the windows completely misses the point. Any of the 3 items I mentioned is something that's fun that directly affects how the car drives. I don't want my steering, braking, or shifting automated.

Bacura

I'm just repeating myself....but then again this whole tread is repetition. I always drove MT...prior to 2009. I loved driving MT and always wondered why anyone would purchase a sports car with MT. I completely understand why some people love shifting. A perfect heel and toe is a wonderful thing. But then I gambled in 2009 and purchased one of the very first PDK equipped cars in Canada. It was the first special order PDK car that the dealership had delivered (2009 C2S). I had no threads like this to guide me....if you can call this thread a guide. Well, needless to say, I was sold and am now on my second PDK 911. I still understand MT but for me , PDK is an all around more enjoyable car. By taking shifting out of the equation, I now do all the other things a car does better. Maybe it's my age and I fully admit that but I never miss a shift, never have a sore left leg in traffic and with both hands always on the wheel I think I am an all around better driver. Still, MT is an acquired skill...like threshold braking. I can only explain why I like PDK. To argue with someone who likes MT ( or visa-versa) is useless and downright childish. This whole thread is about as low as it gets on Rennlist. For father's day please have the administrators close this totally useless thread......and ban anyone who tries to restart it.

Noah Fect

This lack of understanding is unavoidable when your thinking begins with false premises. The PDK cannot (yet) look ahead in time or space the way the human driver can, and it will never be able to read the driver's mind. So it will continue to be important to give the driver final authority over the gear selection strategy for as long as we have transmissions in our cars.

For instance, if I want to pass a slower car on a wet road, I might downshift manually before beginning the maneuver so that I don't unsettle the car with an automatic downshift when I accelerate. No matter how smoothly the car can downshift itself, I will always prefer to initiate the shift myself under certain conditions. The other 99% of the time, shifting gears does not contribute to my driving safety or enjoyment, so I'm happy to let HAL do it for me.

As much as anything else, it's your constant attempts to carve your subjective opinions in rhetorical stone that keep these goofy threads going. Nobody could argue with you if you said, "I believe that taking any of these away ruins the sports car experience." But very few people will agree with you when you phrase it as a statement of objective truth.

And you can rest assured, as a certain statement of objective truth, that the number of people who do agree will only diminish over time.

Larry Cable

[WHINE]
well ... I still wonder about the rear brake wear with PTV+ based upon the 997.1 GT3 brake bias/ABD issues...
[/WHINE]