991.2 Cobb Accessport, post your results
02-14-2020, 09:07 PM
#151
As usual, I provoked an intelligent debate and people started to ask the right questions, and the inexperienced jumped over the top with rubbish.
Stoich is the safest tune you can run. PERIOD. That is why a Pro tune is safer. (Two hours on the dyno will not get you to Stoich, it takes time. But you will be far closer than an OTS map) Perfect fuelling will never and can never blow up a motor.....ever. Stoich is Not aggressive. Stoich is perfection.
Aggressive is some Moron that was approaching Stoich and then constantly badgers the tuner for more, More More More, but doesn't want to pay more. That's not even aggressive, that's moronic. There is only one Stoich. Get your car to Stoich and it will give you the best, safest power possible, under all conditions. Its outside of Stoich that wears the motor. Too rich is Bad, too lean is bad. Stoich is perfection. Perfection is the safest.
OTS is no where near Stoich. I'm not saying OTS is dangerous. Its just no where near perfect. OTS takes stock and tweaks a couple of things. Very little is changed.
The only thing you need to take away is. Stoich is less dangerous, less stress, more power, more everywhere of what you want. Now doesn't that sound worth it? Probably not to many as I started this debate with, most people want everything for nothing. So a cheap OTS tune will suit. But stop saying a custom tune is more aggressive or more dangerous. It is more powerful, and it is closer to Stoich the more you refine and test and refine again.
Stoich is the safest tune you can run. PERIOD. That is why a Pro tune is safer. (Two hours on the dyno will not get you to Stoich, it takes time. But you will be far closer than an OTS map) Perfect fuelling will never and can never blow up a motor.....ever. Stoich is Not aggressive. Stoich is perfection.
Aggressive is some Moron that was approaching Stoich and then constantly badgers the tuner for more, More More More, but doesn't want to pay more. That's not even aggressive, that's moronic. There is only one Stoich. Get your car to Stoich and it will give you the best, safest power possible, under all conditions. Its outside of Stoich that wears the motor. Too rich is Bad, too lean is bad. Stoich is perfection. Perfection is the safest.
OTS is no where near Stoich. I'm not saying OTS is dangerous. Its just no where near perfect. OTS takes stock and tweaks a couple of things. Very little is changed.
The only thing you need to take away is. Stoich is less dangerous, less stress, more power, more everywhere of what you want. Now doesn't that sound worth it? Probably not to many as I started this debate with, most people want everything for nothing. So a cheap OTS tune will suit. But stop saying a custom tune is more aggressive or more dangerous. It is more powerful, and it is closer to Stoich the more you refine and test and refine again.
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thesaintusa (02-14-2020)
02-14-2020, 09:20 PM
#152
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
How many people here even know about stoichiometric mixture?
If I had the time to run a comparison of the tables from Pro to OTS it would be quite an interesting read
If I had the time to run a comparison of the tables from Pro to OTS it would be quite an interesting read
Last edited by B Russ; 02-14-2020 at 10:25 PM.
02-14-2020, 09:21 PM
#153
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thesaintusa (02-14-2020)
02-14-2020, 09:25 PM
#154
COBB need to do a lot more work on 991.2 to unlock more tables. The old 3.8 Turbo has plenty unlocked. We have bugger all. Thus my desire for MoTeC to program for our platform and unlock everything. We have not even scratched the surface with this 3.0 TT platform.
02-14-2020, 09:58 PM
#155
Yes you can run on the ragged edge, but the tuner will/should ask what type of fuel you will be running and explain that a tune is tailored to that fuel.
The Subaru tuner I used has consistently shown the difference between fuel from various suppliers and tuned me to run what I would be running on a regular basis. FWIW my Subaru is tuned for 94 octane, and that is what I run in it, but I can use 91, but if I am going to hammer on it HARD I would load a tune that would account for it.
It took about 3-4 hrs on the dyno until the tuner was happy with how the car ran, and it was countless runs under various conditions. I was amazed at how many part throttle runs he did.
Knowing that fuel quality varies, a 'safer tune' could be made if road tripping.
02-15-2020, 10:57 AM
#156
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
No street driving consumer can control fuel consistency, even when using the same brand. Thats the ultimate variable and concern when your pushing these perameters
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GT3FZS (02-18-2020)
02-15-2020, 12:47 PM
#157
Former Vendor
Although, choosing top tier fuel suppliers means you're using the best quality and most consistent fuel available. There are MANY articles and studies out there on this, it's not difficult info to come across with a google search as there is a lot.
When these kinds of conversations are had with a tuner, or should be, in regards to 'what kind and where do you buy'. Without knowing this a tuner would (should) tune more conservatively compared to a more reliable source. With fuel coming out of a drum those limits can be pushed even more as the quality/consistency is ideal.
Whether talking about tunes (Pro-tunes vs OTS) or fuels, it always comes back to getting what you paid for. A more premium product costs more because it delivers more.
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thesaintusa (02-15-2020)
02-15-2020, 01:45 PM
#158
COBB knowingly has released a product that is inferior and does not live up to the standards of a Porsche consumer.
In the past 12 months, there have been multiple revisions (at least 4 that I am aware of) to the tuning, some of these revisions are said to make more power, some are said to make less??
To top this off, COBB does not even sell you the best product they can offer. They defer to their network of "pro-tuners" who make tweaks to architecture that COBB provides. For this you are expected to pay somewhere around $800? As a consumer, why would you be happy about this? You are always going to second guess what you have been provided, even with a "pro-tune". Is your "pro-tune" going to live up to someone else's? Did you actually receive the best product that your "pro-tuner" is capable of delivering? Will these "pro-tunes" even stand up to the test of time?
Nobody should have to settle for less. Feel free to check my post history, I ran the COBB AP, I switched to APR and I am much happier.
In the past 12 months, there have been multiple revisions (at least 4 that I am aware of) to the tuning, some of these revisions are said to make more power, some are said to make less??
To top this off, COBB does not even sell you the best product they can offer. They defer to their network of "pro-tuners" who make tweaks to architecture that COBB provides. For this you are expected to pay somewhere around $800? As a consumer, why would you be happy about this? You are always going to second guess what you have been provided, even with a "pro-tune". Is your "pro-tune" going to live up to someone else's? Did you actually receive the best product that your "pro-tuner" is capable of delivering? Will these "pro-tunes" even stand up to the test of time?
Nobody should have to settle for less. Feel free to check my post history, I ran the COBB AP, I switched to APR and I am much happier.
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GT3FZS (02-18-2020)
02-15-2020, 02:08 PM
#160
Here are three reviews I have shared.
After about a year of running the COBB Accessport on my 991.2 Carrera, I decided to switch to APR. Bottom line up front, I could not be happier.
I'll do my best to give an honest review of the differences that I have noticed between the two products on my car.
Install
Originally, when I bought the COBB, the ECU had to be removed and sent into COBB for the initial unlock. Obviously there was quite a bit of drama to deal with, will not go to much into that because it's not a factor anymore.
With the APR upgrade, the dealer came to me and programmed the car at my home. The process was virtually painless and took about 15 minutes from start to finish. I have had APR on my Volkswagens and Audis in the past, so I was familiar with, and fully trust the product.
The dealer plugged into my car with a tablet computer, entered my customer information and started the programming process. The interface they used scanned the car and reported the information that is unique to my car. I asked what it was and they told me it was my ECU part number and software version. I asked why it mattered and they told me it was because there are several different ECU part numbers and software versions and the programming they provide is unique to my car. I though this was pretty awesome because with the COBB, there was only one type of software that loaded to the AP and they had made changes to it several times update the car. After the interface responded back with the information, the dealer initiated the "burn process". I was sent an email direct from APR to authorize the programming to which I responded. Almost instantly after I had responded, the programming began. The dealer let me watch the process, which was pretty fun. Here is a photo of the programming interface doing its thing.
After the programming was complete, I was emailed a copy of the owners manual as a.pdf file. It included the details on what was programmed onto the car, the serial number, warranty and the date the car was programmed.
First Drive
Where I live, the roads suck, and we can have quite a bit of traffic. The first thing I noticed with the APR, was how smooth the car ran when you get on and off the throttle. The throttle tip in is amazing now and much more responsive than stock and with the COBB.
With the COBB it always felt like there was a delay from when the accelerator pedal was pushed and when the car reacted. The APR programming feels almost instantaneous when compared to both stock and COBB. I have not done any specific quantified measurements yet, however the APR programming is definitely more powerful than the COBB was on my car. Although I never heard any pre-ignition, the COBB programming always worried me at low speed high torque because the boost gauge on the car would peg instantly.
After 50 miles of driving
With the APR, the boost feels as if it comes on much more smoothly than before, albeit with more power. APR advertises 475HP on 93 octane when in sport or sport plus mode, COBB advertises 18% more horsepower on 93 octane, which would put it at 436HP. The APR definitely feels as if it has nearly 40 more horsepower on the same fuel. Mashing the accelerator leads to instant acceleration and the car pulls like crazy.
Tomorrow I have a PCA photography event on a private airstrip rental. Word on the street is that we may be able to do some fun runs with some of the other Porsches. The plan is to line up with a 991.2 GTS, some GT3s and GT3RSs. I'll come back in a week or so and post a follow-up review. I have a dyno session scheduled next Saturday and will be sure to post those numbers.
I'll do my best to give an honest review of the differences that I have noticed between the two products on my car.
Install
Originally, when I bought the COBB, the ECU had to be removed and sent into COBB for the initial unlock. Obviously there was quite a bit of drama to deal with, will not go to much into that because it's not a factor anymore.
With the APR upgrade, the dealer came to me and programmed the car at my home. The process was virtually painless and took about 15 minutes from start to finish. I have had APR on my Volkswagens and Audis in the past, so I was familiar with, and fully trust the product.
The dealer plugged into my car with a tablet computer, entered my customer information and started the programming process. The interface they used scanned the car and reported the information that is unique to my car. I asked what it was and they told me it was my ECU part number and software version. I asked why it mattered and they told me it was because there are several different ECU part numbers and software versions and the programming they provide is unique to my car. I though this was pretty awesome because with the COBB, there was only one type of software that loaded to the AP and they had made changes to it several times update the car. After the interface responded back with the information, the dealer initiated the "burn process". I was sent an email direct from APR to authorize the programming to which I responded. Almost instantly after I had responded, the programming began. The dealer let me watch the process, which was pretty fun. Here is a photo of the programming interface doing its thing.
After the programming was complete, I was emailed a copy of the owners manual as a.pdf file. It included the details on what was programmed onto the car, the serial number, warranty and the date the car was programmed.
First Drive
Where I live, the roads suck, and we can have quite a bit of traffic. The first thing I noticed with the APR, was how smooth the car ran when you get on and off the throttle. The throttle tip in is amazing now and much more responsive than stock and with the COBB.
With the COBB it always felt like there was a delay from when the accelerator pedal was pushed and when the car reacted. The APR programming feels almost instantaneous when compared to both stock and COBB. I have not done any specific quantified measurements yet, however the APR programming is definitely more powerful than the COBB was on my car. Although I never heard any pre-ignition, the COBB programming always worried me at low speed high torque because the boost gauge on the car would peg instantly.
After 50 miles of driving
With the APR, the boost feels as if it comes on much more smoothly than before, albeit with more power. APR advertises 475HP on 93 octane when in sport or sport plus mode, COBB advertises 18% more horsepower on 93 octane, which would put it at 436HP. The APR definitely feels as if it has nearly 40 more horsepower on the same fuel. Mashing the accelerator leads to instant acceleration and the car pulls like crazy.
Tomorrow I have a PCA photography event on a private airstrip rental. Word on the street is that we may be able to do some fun runs with some of the other Porsches. The plan is to line up with a 991.2 GTS, some GT3s and GT3RSs. I'll come back in a week or so and post a follow-up review. I have a dyno session scheduled next Saturday and will be sure to post those numbers.
Non-sport
I've only put about 50 miles, so have yet to push the car hard in non-sport.
My experience in non-sport was great, as I drove in the stop and go traffic we get here on my short ( 6 mile) commute to work. 6 miles here can take 5-7 minutes, or an hour depending on the time of the day. When you are in traffic for an hour, there is a lot of time to think about what could be better. I might of mentioned before, throttle tip in was what I first noticed right off the bat. The car just drives better in traffic. With the Cobb, it always felt like the car had an on/off switch for power that had some latency. It is also nice that I did not have to do my normal start up sequence of turning on the seat a/c and turning off the auto start/stop. In sports mode that is not a factor of course.
Sports mode
The car flat out moves. What you see on the graph from APR is exactly what I got. The torque delivery is a very smooth, but quick climb to nearly 500ft/lbs, which gives the car instantaneous acceleration. At full load driving pressure (45psi) in the rear, the Cobb used to spin the P-Zero tires in a way that did not feel natural. I had to adjust my rear pressure down to 38-40 to avoid this. It was always a concern to me, so I would be constantly watching my TPMS monitor. With the APR in sports mode, I went back to 45psi and the traction is right there where is it supposed to be. I think this may be how they manage the torque down low. It would be awesome if @tyler@apr could chime in and verify if this is the case.
Why I switched
I touched on it a little bit in on first post, but the massive torque spike I got with Cobb was a concern to me. Where I live, there is quite a bit of dialogue in the local car community about low speed, high torque pre-ignition. Here is a good read about it. We have consistency issues with the fuel that comes out of the tank. It's not always is it what's advertised. There is a monthly octane report that tests the fuels at local gas stations. The octane can vary from 88 to 93 based upon where you shop on any given day. Shell V-power appears to have the most consistency, but this is still a concern to me.
The ultimate plan
The final selling point to me is the availability of a well tested e85 option. I really like the fact that APR took the time to add many external sensors to the 991.2 and gather data that is not available through the factory ECU. The OEMs such as Porsche are putting fewer and fewer sensors on new models and relying on the modeling that is built into simulations to predict how the car runs. That is great when the car is running the programming that Porsche gave us, however those models are tossed out the window with a ECU remap.
With the concerns I have from the octane report I posed earlier, I can put part of that to rest. I will be able to add a fuel content analyzer which will allow me to see exactly what the ethanol content is from my phone or tablet and demystify what is in the tank. e85 is not available to the public through the pump here, so I have a couple of 250 gallon fuel tanks for delivery and storage.
I feel confident that the folks at APR are monitoring what the consumer wants and will be offering program switching soon. I had the APR mobile dongle on my Volkswagens and Audis and the app is still on my phone. Being able to switch the files like I did in the past would be the piece de resistance.
When I first installed the Cobb it was v1.02, then I upgraded?? to v1.04 and finally v1.06. The final firmware update was 1.7.3.0.
I've only put about 50 miles, so have yet to push the car hard in non-sport.
My experience in non-sport was great, as I drove in the stop and go traffic we get here on my short ( 6 mile) commute to work. 6 miles here can take 5-7 minutes, or an hour depending on the time of the day. When you are in traffic for an hour, there is a lot of time to think about what could be better. I might of mentioned before, throttle tip in was what I first noticed right off the bat. The car just drives better in traffic. With the Cobb, it always felt like the car had an on/off switch for power that had some latency. It is also nice that I did not have to do my normal start up sequence of turning on the seat a/c and turning off the auto start/stop. In sports mode that is not a factor of course.
Sports mode
The car flat out moves. What you see on the graph from APR is exactly what I got. The torque delivery is a very smooth, but quick climb to nearly 500ft/lbs, which gives the car instantaneous acceleration. At full load driving pressure (45psi) in the rear, the Cobb used to spin the P-Zero tires in a way that did not feel natural. I had to adjust my rear pressure down to 38-40 to avoid this. It was always a concern to me, so I would be constantly watching my TPMS monitor. With the APR in sports mode, I went back to 45psi and the traction is right there where is it supposed to be. I think this may be how they manage the torque down low. It would be awesome if @tyler@apr could chime in and verify if this is the case.
Why I switched
I touched on it a little bit in on first post, but the massive torque spike I got with Cobb was a concern to me. Where I live, there is quite a bit of dialogue in the local car community about low speed, high torque pre-ignition. Here is a good read about it. We have consistency issues with the fuel that comes out of the tank. It's not always is it what's advertised. There is a monthly octane report that tests the fuels at local gas stations. The octane can vary from 88 to 93 based upon where you shop on any given day. Shell V-power appears to have the most consistency, but this is still a concern to me.
The ultimate plan
The final selling point to me is the availability of a well tested e85 option. I really like the fact that APR took the time to add many external sensors to the 991.2 and gather data that is not available through the factory ECU. The OEMs such as Porsche are putting fewer and fewer sensors on new models and relying on the modeling that is built into simulations to predict how the car runs. That is great when the car is running the programming that Porsche gave us, however those models are tossed out the window with a ECU remap.
With the concerns I have from the octane report I posed earlier, I can put part of that to rest. I will be able to add a fuel content analyzer which will allow me to see exactly what the ethanol content is from my phone or tablet and demystify what is in the tank. e85 is not available to the public through the pump here, so I have a couple of 250 gallon fuel tanks for delivery and storage.
I feel confident that the folks at APR are monitoring what the consumer wants and will be offering program switching soon. I had the APR mobile dongle on my Volkswagens and Audis and the app is still on my phone. Being able to switch the files like I did in the past would be the piece de resistance.
When I first installed the Cobb it was v1.02, then I upgraded?? to v1.04 and finally v1.06. The final firmware update was 1.7.3.0.
Here is a little more non-quantitative data
Got a chance to do some side by side pulls with a FBO 991 GT3 (it has long tube headers, air filter upgrade, center exhaust replacement and FVD Brombacher engine/pdk tune). Owner estimates maybe 500-515HP??
We had plenty of open road on the taxi-way next to an airstrip where there was a photography event I went to yesterday. In each of the hits we were running the cars out to about 150ish through most of the gears. I was on the APR 93 octane file with no passengers. He had one passenger that weighed maybe 150ish.
I let the GT3 get the hit each time and reacted on the sound of its deafening exhaust. The torque of the 3.0 really shined and would reel in the GT3 almost immediately and pull right past it. Due to the impulsivity of the pulls, nether one of us video taped the shenanigans. Maybe next time? Next up I may try to get some dragy pulls tomorrow for some quantifiable data, then off to the dyno next Saturday. Just gotta verify that the dyno is set up for RPM signal (AWD dynojet). It is fully calibrated speed wise since the company uses it to do speedometer calibrations on law enforcement vehicles.
Here's a closing shot of the GT3.
Got a chance to do some side by side pulls with a FBO 991 GT3 (it has long tube headers, air filter upgrade, center exhaust replacement and FVD Brombacher engine/pdk tune). Owner estimates maybe 500-515HP??
We had plenty of open road on the taxi-way next to an airstrip where there was a photography event I went to yesterday. In each of the hits we were running the cars out to about 150ish through most of the gears. I was on the APR 93 octane file with no passengers. He had one passenger that weighed maybe 150ish.
I let the GT3 get the hit each time and reacted on the sound of its deafening exhaust. The torque of the 3.0 really shined and would reel in the GT3 almost immediately and pull right past it. Due to the impulsivity of the pulls, nether one of us video taped the shenanigans. Maybe next time? Next up I may try to get some dragy pulls tomorrow for some quantifiable data, then off to the dyno next Saturday. Just gotta verify that the dyno is set up for RPM signal (AWD dynojet). It is fully calibrated speed wise since the company uses it to do speedometer calibrations on law enforcement vehicles.
Here's a closing shot of the GT3.
02-15-2020, 02:24 PM
#162
02-15-2020, 02:47 PM
#163
Rennlist Member
02-15-2020, 02:54 PM
#164
Been pretty hard to get any valid 60-130 and full 1/4 mile times, as I live on Oahu. Not too much flat ground here. Best 0-60 is 3.47 seconds (3.24 with 1ft rollout) which equals a COBB AP Stage II AWD C4S. I have a RWD 3.0 coupe.
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BLKFLAG (04-24-2020)
02-15-2020, 06:38 PM
#165
COBB knowingly has released a product that is inferior and does not live up to the standards of a Porsche consumer.
In the past 12 months, there have been multiple revisions (at least 4 that I am aware of) to the tuning, some of these revisions are said to make more power, some are said to make less??
.
In the past 12 months, there have been multiple revisions (at least 4 that I am aware of) to the tuning, some of these revisions are said to make more power, some are said to make less??
.
Engineers always want more time to do development, the marketing/business side wanted the product launched yesterday. That's how it goes. Heck, when the Nissan GTR was launched in 2008, the engineers weren't happy because they hadn't completed the aero development to their liking. Or, 991.2 specific, the water pump failure issue. Can you imagine if Porsche would have held up the launch of the 991.2 because of water pump leaks? Now, where the business side was wrong in rushing is the case of the Boeing 737 MAX. Should've listened to the engineers on that one...
I know the teams at both COBB and APR. Each team approached the market with a different solution and there are benefits and negatives to both.