When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Gerb won't know. He might not even respond because I asked him about the buckle situation I had. That being said, check out page 3 of my review of these seats - they are not exactly plug and play for 991.
I'm a bit frustrated and considering putting back the 4 ways sports seat. I'll put mine up for sell then.
I was told by a shop on the west coast that the weight sensor can be ordered and placed into the seats. I believe it was GMG but I know for sure it was somewhere on west coast. They said they did it in a GT2Rs. Then again, I was also told by another forum member that the airbag serials had to be coded in which apparently is not the case. I hope you guys stick with it and figure it out though.
I hope you guys stick with it and figure it out though.
Still interested, as I think these seats are worth it as they:
Save weight
Offer greater connection with the car
Offer more lateral support (for me, at least) than 918 buckets
Preserve access to rear exterior
May add a bit of knee/legroom in the back as a result of seatbacks that might be a bit thinner
Allow for proper harnesses for track work (and would be very nice in conjunction with this)
Look great
Add "sense of occasion" to every drive
Downsides, assuming safety issue can be figured, include less adjustability and cost. Lived with a pair of them in a 987.2S for a couple of years, and never wished for the sofas. Would be happy to have them in a 991.2 Carrera…so I am still hopeful.
Whilst sourcing from Europe is doable, my belief is that you will need to proceed with caution...
The main reason for this is that, within Europe, on the 981/991 generation cars there are no 'occupancy sensors' fitted to passenger-side seats (of any type, whether sofas, folding buckets or LWBs); the passenger airbag is always live (once the ignition circuit is powered up) unless it is switched-off via a key-operated switch that is not even standard fit and which has to be ordered and fitted as an accessory item. In North American markets (in the main, USA and Canada), occupancy sensors are fitted to the passenger seat so that the airbag is deactivated if the seat is not occupied (and, I believe, the airbag is programmed to give a different, more gentle, deployment in the case that a lightweight occupant, such as a child, is detected). So, as a general rule, seats purchased in Europe will not have any occupancy sensor fitted which leads to the reported problem of having the airbag warning light permanently lit.
And, in the case of folding buckets, I think you will struggle to overcome this. I'm not absolutely, totally, completely 100% sure but I believe it's the case that the folding buckets have not been engineered for 981/991 generation cars with any form of occupancy sensor (the logic would appear to be that they could not satisfy recently updated safety regulations requiring height adjustment to be incorporated, so if they are not legal and cannot be fitted, why spend time, money and effort in developing a sensor system?). In the earlier cars (987/997.2), occupancy sensing on folding buckets was achieved through use of piezo-electric pressure transducers that were integrated into the seat rails and mounting points on North American spec cars, and there's a double-whammy at play here; newly sourced 981/991-era folding buckets (eg: from Europe) will not have sensors and, fitting older 987/997-era folding buckets will not work as the 981/991 generation cars are not compatible, electrically, with the senors fitted to the older seats.
All of that said, a good place to look for new or nearly-new seats (folding buckets or LWBs) from within Europe is at www.teile.com, who have operations in Poland and in the east of Germany; I have good personal experience of the quality of their service and for excellent support from Michael who works there.
Probably not the information you were hoping to uncover and, whilst there are some parts of what I've written that I can't be absolutely, totally sure about, I'm confident enough about my findings to recommend you to take care if you step into this area. Folding buckets are expensive paper weights if you can't get them to work properly in your car!
James
^ If the above is correct, and its author has a very level-headed approach to accuracy in this very helpful post, I wonder if the "fix" involves parts from the US-approved 918 seats—particularly as it seems the folding buckets' lack of height adjustment meant they could no longer be offered in the US. Then again, sensors that work on one seat might not work on another.
The irony is I'd be happy to code my car the RoW way, so that all airbags fire in the event of an impact. By the time one airbag fires, there's very good chance buying another airbag or three is the least of your worries.
Originally Posted by chillindrdude
Thank you the in depth explanation, James. Most helpful.
I was told that BGB Motorsports are able to retrofit GT2 seats (unsure if these are 997 or euro 991.1-2014 spec) to the 911.1 GT3. When I pm'd them about this process, they confirmed they DO perform this conversion with all lights addressed. But that know-how is kept close to their chests as, they do a "deeper" programming so that seats are accepted.
I believe I've also seen another RLer successfully retrofit a drivers-side only to their GT3 without airbag light issues. (was not clear if some sort of advanced programming was needed).
^ As we've seen, it's possible to have no airbag fault code lights—but have an overhead light indicate the passenger airbag(s) will not work despite the presence of a passenger. No bueno. Wonder if BGB or John could be coaxed into weighing in on this—I can respect keeping some things close to the vest, and certainly understand the various reasons one might do so in a public forum, but this is a safety issue and something that would benefit a lot of folks...not to mention some suppliers the community depends on.
From Gert at Carnewal. Anyone know what a "Piwis" is?
"We have sold quite a lot of these seats in the US and Canada
You can install the P91007 991 GT2 seats in a US 991 gen2 without problem but you will get an airbag warning light for the passenger side.
a US Porsche dealer will not be able to disable the light.
Only with an aftermarket Piwis it is possible to disable the airbag warning light.
Attached is a picture of the connector at the bottom of the seats The P91007 991 GT2 seats in black leather are 6750 euro/pair shipping to the US included.
From Gert at Carnewal. Anyone know what a "Piwis" is?
"We have sold quite a lot of these seats in the US and Canada
You can install the P91007 991 GT2 seats in a US 991 gen2 without problem but you will get an airbag warning light for the passenger side.
a US Porsche dealer will not be able to disable the light.
Only with an aftermarket Piwis it is possible to disable the airbag warning light.
Attached is a picture of the connector at the bottom of the seats The P91007 991 GT2 seats in black leather are 6750 euro/pair shipping to the US included.
Thanks for the pic above. Now we need a similar pic of a 981/991/918 fixed bucket—would be interesting to see what's there, and to see if it could be adapted to a 981/991 GT2 folding bucket.
Problem is "possible to disable the airbag warning light" with aftermarket equipment is uninteresting to me; keeping the full functionality of the car's safety systems is a minimum bar. Paying for and installing a factory seat with an airbag that won't work—and may well prevent other airbags from deploying—is a nonstarter. At that point, one might as well go with an aftermarket Recaro shell....
I got some update from @Blue Flame . He's got a 991.2 GT3T with the folding bucket in Euro. It looks like Euro doesn't have the passenger airbag lights in overhead, and their harness is MUCH simpler than US. On the passenger side it doesn't have the grey box harness or the black. This led me to believe Euro wiring is different than US.
I think if we all want to make the bucket to work, only method is probably buying the LWB (non foldable) that are sold in the US with proper configuration... But the cost is prohibitive IMO.
I got some update from @Blue Flame . He's got a 991.2 GT3T with the folding bucket in Euro. It looks like Euro doesn't have the passenger airbag lights in overhead, and their harness is MUCH simpler than US. On the passenger side it doesn't have the grey box harness or the black.
Thanks! This confirms at RoW seats don't have the passenger occupancy sensor.
The main reason for this is that, within Europe, on the 981/991 generation cars there are no 'occupancy sensors' fitted to passenger-side seats (of any type, whether sofas, folding buckets or LWBs); the passenger airbag is always live (once the ignition circuit is powered up) unless it is switched-off via a key-operated switch that is not even standard fit and which has to be ordered and fitted as an accessory item. In North American markets (in the main, USA and Canada), occupancy sensors are fitted to the passenger seat so that the airbag is deactivated if the seat is not occupied (and, I believe, the airbag is programmed to give a different, more gentle, deployment in the case that a lightweight occupant, such as a child, is detected). So, as a general rule, seats purchased in Europe will not have any occupancy sensor fitted which leads to the reported problem of having the airbag warning light permanently lit.
As for this:
Originally Posted by stout
Now we need a similar pic of a 981/991/918 fixed bucket—would be interesting to see what's there, and to see if it could be adapted to a 981/991 GT2 folding bucket.
Which corresponds to this statement about the folding buckets using piezo-electric pressure transducers:
Originally Posted by jbatchelor
And, in the case of folding buckets, I think you will struggle to overcome this. I'm not absolutely, totally, completely 100% sure but I believe it's the case that the folding buckets have not been engineered for 981/991 generation cars with any form of occupancy sensor (the logic would appear to be that they could not satisfy recently updated safety regulations requiring height adjustment to be incorporated, so if they are not legal and cannot be fitted, why spend time, money and effort in developing a sensor system?). In the earlier cars (987/997.2), occupancy sensing on folding buckets was achieved through use of piezo-electric pressure transducers that were integrated into the seat rails and mounting points on North American spec cars, and there's a double-whammy at play here; newly sourced 981/991-era folding buckets (eg: from Europe) will not have sensors and, fitting older 987/997-era folding buckets will not work as the 981/991 generation cars are not compatible, electrically, with the senors fitted to the older seats.
I was thinking about ordering the Control Unit and Wiring Harness for the Occupancy sensor from the 997 seat, and seeing if I can plug it into the Airbag computer of the 991 seat (depending on how much those 2 parts cost ...looking into it now). However, I'm a little worried about this approach because of the last sentence of that last quote (in bold).
Ok, lots of misinformation floating around with the GT2 bucket seats in a 981 or 991. Here is the deal:
1) The driver side GT2 bucket seat is PLUG AND PLAY. The harness is identical. It works
2) The passenger side GT2 bucket seat is PLUG AND PLAY. However, the airbag light will remain on because the seat occupancy detector is not compatible.
Options to address the seat occupancy detector issue:
1) pull the detector from your regular seats and plug/wire it in
2) buy one from the dealer for $2500 because it includes the LWB seat cushion
3) Go on ebay or a salvage yard and find an occupany detector made by AC delco for around $40 and plug/wire it in.
I recently had to deal with this issue because the rubber tube that connects to pressure bladder to the pressure transducer got torn up by the GMG antisub plate mounts on my 991 GT3, so I lost the fluid in the bladder. As a result, my airbag light went on. Dealers cant get the part individually, so it is crazy expensive to get it from the dealer. My buddy found a bladder unit on ebay that was off of a VW and the harness matched exactly. We bought it for $37, plugged it in, and the airbag light went off.
This seems like the most promising solution. Option 1 is a no go for me, because I would ruin my 18-way heating/cooling seats trying to do so. Option 2 is a maybe, depending on how bad I want this to work... And Option 3 might be just right, if I can find the part Joe is referring to in that post.
Which corresponds to this statement about the folding buckets using piezo-electric pressure transducers:
I was thinking about ordering the Control Unit and Wiring Harness for the Occupancy sensor from the 997 seat, and seeing if I can plug it into the Airbag computer of the 991 seat (depending on how much those 2 parts cost ...looking into it now). However, I'm a little worried about this approach because of the last sentence of that last quote (in bold).
This seems like the most promising solution. Option 1 is a no go for me, because I would ruin my 18-way heating/cooling seats trying to do so. Option 2 is a maybe, depending on how bad I want this to work... And Option 3 might be just right, if I can find the part Joe is referring to in that post.
^ Was actually coming at it from a different angle, which is to see what's under a US 991/918 seat rather than a US 997/GT2 seat—as we're trying to keep a US 991 system happy.
OrthoJoe to the rescue, and agree with you on Option 3 being the most attractive. Would love to know the part number on the bladder his buddy found, and how it is mounted. Not all that surprising that there's that kind of parts sharing in VW Group cars, which is potentially a boon for us.
^ Was actually coming at it from a different angle, which is to see what's under a US 991/918 seat rather than a US 997/GT2 seat—as we're trying to keep a US 991 system happy.
OrthoJoe to the rescue, and agree with you on Option 3 being the most attractive. Would love to know the part number on the bladder his buddy found, and how it is mounted. Not all that surprising that there's that kind of parts sharing in VW Group cars, which is potentially a boon for us.
Gotcha. Based on Joe's post though, it sounds like the 991 LWB seats use an occupancy bladder/mat embedded in the cushion.
I just ordered an occupancy bladder from a parts scavenger on ebay for $40. ...from a '14 Cayenne, but worth the price just to try it.
I won't be able to try it on my car until I move the rest of the wiring harness over, but I can't get to that until the end of Dec. But if .moo. is willing to give it a shot, we can plug the bladder into his car and try it out (since his harness is moved over to the new seats)?
^ Was actually coming at it from a different angle, which is to see what's under a US 991/918 seat rather than a US 997/GT2 seat—as we're trying to keep a US 991 system happy.
Found some pics for you, from the bottom and the top (where you can see the bladder):
Gotcha. Based on Joe's post though, it sounds like the 991 LWB seats use an occupancy bladder/mat embedded in the cushion.
I just ordered an occupancy bladder from a parts scavenger on ebay for $40. ...from a '14 Cayenne, but worth the price just to try it.
I won't be able to try it on my car until I move the rest of the wiring harness over, but I can't get to that until the end of Dec. But if .moo. is willing to give it a shot, we can plug the bladder into his car and try it out (since his harness is moved over to the new seats)?
I was thinking of the same thing. By getting a bladder that uses in the LWB. If US LWB works with the airbag lights on for occupancy sensor, there's HAS to be some sensor/bladder underneath the seat. It looks like you're already ahead of me in the past hours. I'm willing to use my seat to give it shot if you want to try! I don't have any tools at home to remove the seats; hence the reason I brought it to Aleks. But since all the hardwork has been done already in terms of thee wiring, we could both try and remove the seats and install a bladder under the cushion. Let me know when you get the bladder.
I can't recall if I had a plug (the grey one) open for the bladder.
Found some pics for you, from the bottom and the top (where you can see the bladder):
^ Looks promising.
Curious how it is attached (two gray plastic "rivets" as seen in both pics?) and whether it's the same item used in other VW Group products or other Porsches. Looks like its harness gets its own hole in the lower seat shell (plus the two smaller mounting holes), but it's hard to tell where the harness goes once it is obscured by the motor in your first pic. Potential good news is this piece appears to sit on a seat shell not so unlike a GT2 folding bucket, under a cushion that isn't so unlike a GT2 folding bucket's.
Originally Posted by .moo.
...I don't have any tools at home to remove the seats.
I think I do, from buying the special star socket when I swapped to GT2 folding buckets in a 987.2 years ago. Happy to loan the set or socket to marinb if he's local? Will PM him, and will check to see if my 991 seat mounts use the same bolts.
Originally Posted by .moo.
...we could both try and remove the seats and install a bladder under the cushion. Let me know when you get the bladder.
I can't recall if I had a plug (the grey one) open for the bladder.
Then again, you may not need to pull the seat if you can remove the lower cushion and thread the wiring through the sub strap hole (for now...) and find an appropriate plug/harness.
11-17-2019 | 09:28 PM
