Ceramic coating worth it?
11-17-2019, 12:51 PM
#136
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Did the coating star looking less than great or were you proactively applying more? Did you do any of the later ones yourself? Cost was about $1600 for the full car after they installed PPF? Thanks
11-17-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack F
Did the coating star looking less than great or were you proactively applying more? Did you do any of the later ones yourself? Cost was about $1600 for the full car after they installed PPF? Thanks
04-01-2020, 07:23 PM
#139
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Originally Posted by kiddoutlaw
Lexvan: Quick question What are you now using for your Wheels? Are you still using Optimum Gloss Coat or did you switch to CQUARTZ UK?
04-01-2020, 07:48 PM
#140
04-01-2020, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kiddoutlaw
Thanks for the quick response......Have some time on my hands so I may give it a try.
04-02-2020, 03:18 PM
#142
Thanks again
Last edited by kiddoutlaw; 04-02-2020 at 05:22 PM.
04-03-2020, 07:23 AM
#143
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Yes, you can make 10cc's work, you just have to be careful with your portions. Skip the calipers. If you have any remaining, then hit the calipers before you re-mount the wheels.
04-03-2020, 09:48 AM
#144
I just purchased a new car at volkswagon in Augusta that had something called first place ceramic finish on it. Although the car was new it had been outside and at the dealership for a year. They gave me a kit of stuff including a "renewer" claiming it would last 3 years. The car had water spots and I worked 6 hours to get them off. It is still not perfect and I will work another few hours this weekend to clay bar and use meguires cleaner. The ceramic first place finish stuff DOES NOT do anything regular wax could not handle. It also does not last a year. I normally get 6 months out of regular arnuba wax ($12) on a garaged vehicle so my experience is it is money wasted. The only upside is I refused to pay for it even though it was on the window sticker.
04-03-2020, 11:11 AM
#145
Three Wheelin'
Bud, there are two camps on this ceramic stuff, I am with you in the "worthless" camp.
I had it on 3 previous cars and I did it again on my 991.2 and I can tell you without question on all 4 cars it did absolutely nothing.
On the last car, the PPF installer gave me an all inclusive price with the ceramic coating. He insisted on it and since the price was already lower than anyone else
I had no problem allowing him to do it. A year later its done nothing.
In addition, I used 3 different brands of coating and 3 different installers and none of them did a thing.
My two cents, I know others have rave reviews and I believe them, it just has never worked for me.
I had it on 3 previous cars and I did it again on my 991.2 and I can tell you without question on all 4 cars it did absolutely nothing.
On the last car, the PPF installer gave me an all inclusive price with the ceramic coating. He insisted on it and since the price was already lower than anyone else
I had no problem allowing him to do it. A year later its done nothing.
In addition, I used 3 different brands of coating and 3 different installers and none of them did a thing.
My two cents, I know others have rave reviews and I believe them, it just has never worked for me.
04-03-2020, 11:18 AM
#146
I will answer the question and I'll even attempt to make it fun (sorry lol). Feel free to follow up with anymore you may have.
It may help if you first understand technically how they bond/are applied, and how that differs from a wax/sealant.
A real paint coating consists of the active ingredient (the "coating") and transfer solvents. If a coating bottle has 30ml-50ml of liquid, there may be anywhere from 1'ish% to 90+% solids which will form the coating barrier. Did I mention how you're probably better off to think of a (legitimate) paint coating as a barrier? Yeah, do that. A carnauba wax forms an incredibly thin barrier in a similar fashion, except the durability is generally pretty minimal, it stains plastics (coatings can too!...but differently) and the chemical resistance is antiquated in terms of modern technology. Synthetic polymers ("sealants"), provide a huge boost in durability, chemical resistance and in many cases, ease of application over a carnauba wax. Sealants can actually form a healthy crosslink with the molecular structure of your clear coat where wax mostly just sits on top waiting for a warm breeze to scare it away causing you to have totally wasted your time applying that sweet sweet "'nuba" by hand(complete exaggeration but yeah, wax durability is nothing compared to synthetic polymers).
A legitimate paint coating is supposed to form an even stronger crosslink with the paint/PPF. The barrier is supposed to be stronger, more durable, more chemically resistant, provide a measure of scratch resistance (that's one slippery slope that we won't touch beyond this -in short, it's all relative; wax, sealant; "coating". Fair enough?). I say supposed to for all these wonderful things because a "coating" is not always, really a legitimate coating. Too, not everyone cash-grabbing those uneducated private car owners (fancy word for person who owns a vehicle thingy) coating jobs are actually doing a good job. How so? Well, how does your Porsche differ from a 2003 Kia? Ignore the fit and finish, the quality of the materials, the experience you get when having a service, the care of a professional life-long sales person, the performance and connection to the road and all that stuff owning a Porsche 991 gets you. HAVE YOU SEEN HOW CHEAP A 2003 KIA IS?? WHAT A DEAL! haha sorry. You likely get the idea though. Typically, you get what you pay for. In the detailing/paint protection service industry, there are a bazillion ways that corners can get cut in which you will simply never know (such as offering a coating "warranty" which hinges upon you returning once per year and paying $200-$500 per year for them to spray a weak silica treatment on the surface after a wash....just enough to get those Instagram-worth water bead shotz...oh, just read the fine print on the coating warranties available and get back with me
). And we all know it. Some have integrity and do people ethically, many do not. Ya know, those fat stacks can be hard to pass up on for a lot of folks. So they yes-man themselves into getting a car dropped off and oh man oh man! "Guys, blast through this one. We gave him a "deal" so he's getting what he's paying for...." yes, this is exactly how it goes many times for folks and nope, most will never know how poorly the prep was or ...well, just use your imagination. There are infinite ways folks get ripped off and cheated out of a quality prep and coating job.
What was I talking about before? Oh yeah, coating barriers and the what/why of them:
The really cheap DIY products you may find as some off-brand Amazon "coating" will very likely have a very low concentration of the solids. Some professional-only coatings will contain a very high % of coating solids. What does this matter? In general....yeah, so I can't speak in absolutes because, aside from only the Sith speaking in absolutes (ironic that OWK said that, right SW's fans??) there are countless differences that are possible and I don't know everything about every product...anyways, back to that thing I was saying:
In general, the fewer solids a bottle of coating contains, the cheaper it is to produce AND the easier it is to apply. Those are 2 things that are wildly important to the masses of car care DIY'ers. By the way, the quality of the raw materials used in production are also play a large role in the cost to produce a bottle of coating, but that is a whole different conversation (I'll just rely on the fact it's likely that many Rennlist members understand there are many factors that go into the retail cost of a product).
Product A is inexpensive, easy to apply and OMG!! THOSE WATER BEADS ARE TO DIE FOR! Exciting! What's not to love! (yes, a statement, not a serious question lol -think, jovial, not sarcastic
I hope I am not the only one laughing at me right now. I'm honestly trying to be educational and entertaining and this is taking me forever to type out! - 
)
In short, that "coating" barrier is going to SUCK regardless of the unfounded and outlandish claims that all ya gotta do is spray some water on it to keep your paint perfect. It's going to be thin, less chemically resistant (IMHO, one of the top 2 or 3 characteristics that make a legitimate coating worth while or not) and have awful durability. But of course this, and MANY other factors, are not advertised as technical details a consumer should be aware of. Enter the critical thinker who has likely heard the snake-oil claims that cash-grabbers spout ad nauseam (no hate from me, just saying some folks spot snake oil tactics from a mile away):
But coatings just don't break down "unevenly". They were break down fairly uniformly in this way: exposure breaks them down, wears them out and uglies them up. The exact same way exposure does paint, leather, a motor, suspension. "Exposure" is a wildly broad term here and it's intentional.
A legitimate coating will create a very durable barrier that lasts far longer than a sealant and insanely longer than a wax. If the coating is a high caliber product, it will require many redundancies to ensure you don't have high spots or ugly areas because a high concentration of the solids means a low volume of the transfer solvents, which means -"GEEZ DUDE, THIS STUFF IS LIKE SYRUP TO APPLY!" Then the trainer laughs hardily and says, "get used to it newbie, the good stuff is a beast to deal with." The new installer wipes away that tear that gently rolled down his cheek, digs his elbow brace out of his bathroom drawer and then prepares himself for more punishment.
Those transfer solvents carry the suspended solids/active ingredient which are to create the coating barrier. The application method for a hand-applied coating results in the transfer solvents rising and the solids settling lower as they begin to crosslink with the clear coat/ PPF in the plasma-like membrane. Again, think of the good stuff as if you were to apply syrup to your paint. Sure, your paint would be super tasty for a mile or two, but it's not fun when one considers trying to level it out and make that paint silky smooth. This is where a quality product and qualified/honest technician will likely use 300 nice microfibers or so to refine that layer out nicely (okay, not 300 but a lot! Don't forget! IT'S SYRUP MAN! SYRUP!!)
Wow, this is tiring. If this sucks to read, too bad. Welcome to the internet. A lot of stuff sucks to read here.
Just like a paint job requires curing, a legitimate coating will. How long does it take to bake a cake? Well, how thick is the cake? How dense is the batter? Coatings are kinda the same. Sure, there is science-magic happening too. But let's keep this general and easy-to-digest. IR lamps are necessary for some coatings, others not. The "not" coatings? I'll pass. Been there, done that. Maybe the future will bring me a different opinion. But for meow, stick with the ones that require it (with THE focus on the professional you're dealing with).
Cure time is whatever. You wait whatever and BAM, you have a mac-daddy coating barrier on your car. Sweet! How long does it last? That's the some-made-up-dollar-value-question. But how does it wear out? If it's a poorly prepped surface, it will never crosslink and it actually will be removed over the course of one or more washes. "That" job? Yeah, shoulda just put wax on and save some money. A properly prepped surface and quality coating? Some inorganic coatings permanently bond with the substrate they're being applied to. In that case it's not technically how long does it last. A better question is how long does it look nice? If it's there but looks awful, what's the point? And now we're at the true crux of the matter! What's the point of a coating? It's simple:
A quality coating applied by a qualified professional, in general, will offer a car owner a surface that is easier to wash (chemical resistance IS the bee's knees like I said, isn't it?!), looks better over time (in a vacuum of a coating vs synthetic polymer vs wax) and protection that lasts significantly longer. At what cost? You still need to contribute to the good health of the surfaces of your car. No coating will authorize neglect regardless of what some video on "the gram" claims. Coatings reward people who already care properly for their car. Sure, on some technical level a coating could benefit the negligent. But that's not the purpose. It never has been. That's the ear-ticklers weaving their tale.
I wrote an article on 3 necessary pieces to a car owner being satisfied with a paint coating a few years back and I encourage you to read it: http://detaileddesignsautospa.com/pa...r-satisfation/
All jokes aside, I am passionate about this stuff. It's not a cash grab for me and it's not for many industry experts who were around before what we see as modern coatings in North America. (to be completely balanced and fair, there are newer professionals who are equally passionate about what they do and have a genuine desire to treat their clients to something wonderful. I do not mean to suggest it should be some good 'ol boy's club) What we see now has been around in Japan and South Korea for a few decades. The technology is not brand new.
I was going to reply to some other comments with information but I am now beat from typing this out and going to treat myself to some bourbon and then go to bed. Hope this helped you guys out at least a little and provided you with at least a chuckle. And if not a chuckle, maybe I caused air to be swiftly exited through your nostrils. (be honest, how many of you tested your rapid nostril air movement when I said that?
)
It may help if you first understand technically how they bond/are applied, and how that differs from a wax/sealant.
A real paint coating consists of the active ingredient (the "coating") and transfer solvents. If a coating bottle has 30ml-50ml of liquid, there may be anywhere from 1'ish% to 90+% solids which will form the coating barrier. Did I mention how you're probably better off to think of a (legitimate) paint coating as a barrier? Yeah, do that. A carnauba wax forms an incredibly thin barrier in a similar fashion, except the durability is generally pretty minimal, it stains plastics (coatings can too!...but differently) and the chemical resistance is antiquated in terms of modern technology. Synthetic polymers ("sealants"), provide a huge boost in durability, chemical resistance and in many cases, ease of application over a carnauba wax. Sealants can actually form a healthy crosslink with the molecular structure of your clear coat where wax mostly just sits on top waiting for a warm breeze to scare it away causing you to have totally wasted your time applying that sweet sweet "'nuba" by hand(complete exaggeration but yeah, wax durability is nothing compared to synthetic polymers).
A legitimate paint coating is supposed to form an even stronger crosslink with the paint/PPF. The barrier is supposed to be stronger, more durable, more chemically resistant, provide a measure of scratch resistance (that's one slippery slope that we won't touch beyond this -in short, it's all relative; wax, sealant; "coating". Fair enough?). I say supposed to for all these wonderful things because a "coating" is not always, really a legitimate coating. Too, not everyone cash-grabbing those uneducated private car owners (fancy word for person who owns a vehicle thingy) coating jobs are actually doing a good job. How so? Well, how does your Porsche differ from a 2003 Kia? Ignore the fit and finish, the quality of the materials, the experience you get when having a service, the care of a professional life-long sales person, the performance and connection to the road and all that stuff owning a Porsche 991 gets you. HAVE YOU SEEN HOW CHEAP A 2003 KIA IS?? WHAT A DEAL! haha sorry. You likely get the idea though. Typically, you get what you pay for. In the detailing/paint protection service industry, there are a bazillion ways that corners can get cut in which you will simply never know (such as offering a coating "warranty" which hinges upon you returning once per year and paying $200-$500 per year for them to spray a weak silica treatment on the surface after a wash....just enough to get those Instagram-worth water bead shotz...oh, just read the fine print on the coating warranties available and get back with me
). And we all know it. Some have integrity and do people ethically, many do not. Ya know, those fat stacks can be hard to pass up on for a lot of folks. So they yes-man themselves into getting a car dropped off and oh man oh man! "Guys, blast through this one. We gave him a "deal" so he's getting what he's paying for...." yes, this is exactly how it goes many times for folks and nope, most will never know how poorly the prep was or ...well, just use your imagination. There are infinite ways folks get ripped off and cheated out of a quality prep and coating job.What was I talking about before? Oh yeah, coating barriers and the what/why of them:
The really cheap DIY products you may find as some off-brand Amazon "coating" will very likely have a very low concentration of the solids. Some professional-only coatings will contain a very high % of coating solids. What does this matter? In general....yeah, so I can't speak in absolutes because, aside from only the Sith speaking in absolutes (ironic that OWK said that, right SW's fans??) there are countless differences that are possible and I don't know everything about every product...anyways, back to that thing I was saying:
In general, the fewer solids a bottle of coating contains, the cheaper it is to produce AND the easier it is to apply. Those are 2 things that are wildly important to the masses of car care DIY'ers. By the way, the quality of the raw materials used in production are also play a large role in the cost to produce a bottle of coating, but that is a whole different conversation (I'll just rely on the fact it's likely that many Rennlist members understand there are many factors that go into the retail cost of a product).
Product A is inexpensive, easy to apply and OMG!! THOSE WATER BEADS ARE TO DIE FOR! Exciting! What's not to love! (yes, a statement, not a serious question lol -think, jovial, not sarcastic
I hope I am not the only one laughing at me right now. I'm honestly trying to be educational and entertaining and this is taking me forever to type out! - )In short, that "coating" barrier is going to SUCK regardless of the unfounded and outlandish claims that all ya gotta do is spray some water on it to keep your paint perfect. It's going to be thin, less chemically resistant (IMHO, one of the top 2 or 3 characteristics that make a legitimate coating worth while or not) and have awful durability. But of course this, and MANY other factors, are not advertised as technical details a consumer should be aware of. Enter the critical thinker who has likely heard the snake-oil claims that cash-grabbers spout ad nauseam (no hate from me, just saying some folks spot snake oil tactics from a mile away):
But coatings just don't break down "unevenly". They were break down fairly uniformly in this way: exposure breaks them down, wears them out and uglies them up. The exact same way exposure does paint, leather, a motor, suspension. "Exposure" is a wildly broad term here and it's intentional.
A legitimate coating will create a very durable barrier that lasts far longer than a sealant and insanely longer than a wax. If the coating is a high caliber product, it will require many redundancies to ensure you don't have high spots or ugly areas because a high concentration of the solids means a low volume of the transfer solvents, which means -"GEEZ DUDE, THIS STUFF IS LIKE SYRUP TO APPLY!" Then the trainer laughs hardily and says, "get used to it newbie, the good stuff is a beast to deal with." The new installer wipes away that tear that gently rolled down his cheek, digs his elbow brace out of his bathroom drawer and then prepares himself for more punishment.
Those transfer solvents carry the suspended solids/active ingredient which are to create the coating barrier. The application method for a hand-applied coating results in the transfer solvents rising and the solids settling lower as they begin to crosslink with the clear coat/ PPF in the plasma-like membrane. Again, think of the good stuff as if you were to apply syrup to your paint. Sure, your paint would be super tasty for a mile or two, but it's not fun when one considers trying to level it out and make that paint silky smooth. This is where a quality product and qualified/honest technician will likely use 300 nice microfibers or so to refine that layer out nicely (okay, not 300 but a lot! Don't forget! IT'S SYRUP MAN! SYRUP!!)
Wow, this is tiring. If this sucks to read, too bad. Welcome to the internet. A lot of stuff sucks to read here.
Just like a paint job requires curing, a legitimate coating will. How long does it take to bake a cake? Well, how thick is the cake? How dense is the batter? Coatings are kinda the same. Sure, there is science-magic happening too. But let's keep this general and easy-to-digest. IR lamps are necessary for some coatings, others not. The "not" coatings? I'll pass. Been there, done that. Maybe the future will bring me a different opinion. But for meow, stick with the ones that require it (with THE focus on the professional you're dealing with).
Cure time is whatever. You wait whatever and BAM, you have a mac-daddy coating barrier on your car. Sweet! How long does it last? That's the some-made-up-dollar-value-question. But how does it wear out? If it's a poorly prepped surface, it will never crosslink and it actually will be removed over the course of one or more washes. "That" job? Yeah, shoulda just put wax on and save some money. A properly prepped surface and quality coating? Some inorganic coatings permanently bond with the substrate they're being applied to. In that case it's not technically how long does it last. A better question is how long does it look nice? If it's there but looks awful, what's the point? And now we're at the true crux of the matter! What's the point of a coating? It's simple:
A quality coating applied by a qualified professional, in general, will offer a car owner a surface that is easier to wash (chemical resistance IS the bee's knees like I said, isn't it?!), looks better over time (in a vacuum of a coating vs synthetic polymer vs wax) and protection that lasts significantly longer. At what cost? You still need to contribute to the good health of the surfaces of your car. No coating will authorize neglect regardless of what some video on "the gram" claims. Coatings reward people who already care properly for their car. Sure, on some technical level a coating could benefit the negligent. But that's not the purpose. It never has been. That's the ear-ticklers weaving their tale.
I wrote an article on 3 necessary pieces to a car owner being satisfied with a paint coating a few years back and I encourage you to read it: http://detaileddesignsautospa.com/pa...r-satisfation/
All jokes aside, I am passionate about this stuff. It's not a cash grab for me and it's not for many industry experts who were around before what we see as modern coatings in North America. (to be completely balanced and fair, there are newer professionals who are equally passionate about what they do and have a genuine desire to treat their clients to something wonderful. I do not mean to suggest it should be some good 'ol boy's club) What we see now has been around in Japan and South Korea for a few decades. The technology is not brand new.
I was going to reply to some other comments with information but I am now beat from typing this out and going to treat myself to some bourbon and then go to bed. Hope this helped you guys out at least a little and provided you with at least a chuckle. And if not a chuckle, maybe I caused air to be swiftly exited through your nostrils. (be honest, how many of you tested your rapid nostril air movement when I said that?
)
04-03-2020, 11:25 AM
#147
Three Wheelin'
Bud, there are two camps on this ceramic stuff, I am with you in the "worthless" camp.
I had it on 3 previous cars and I did it again on my 991.2 and I can tell you without question on all 4 cars it did absolutely nothing.
On the last car, the PPF installer gave me an all inclusive price with the ceramic coating. He insisted on it and since the price was already lower than anyone else
I had no problem allowing him to do it. A year later its done nothing.
In addition, I used 3 different brands of coating and 3 different installers and none of them did a thing.
My two cents, I know others have rave reviews and I believe them, it just has never worked for me.
I had it on 3 previous cars and I did it again on my 991.2 and I can tell you without question on all 4 cars it did absolutely nothing.
On the last car, the PPF installer gave me an all inclusive price with the ceramic coating. He insisted on it and since the price was already lower than anyone else
I had no problem allowing him to do it. A year later its done nothing.
In addition, I used 3 different brands of coating and 3 different installers and none of them did a thing.
My two cents, I know others have rave reviews and I believe them, it just has never worked for me.
That said, there are a few PPF products on the market now that have hydrophobic properties built into the film. They've really made standalone ceramic coatings obsolete for those of us who want to do film anyway.
I'll shoot a video of my 911 in a few weeks - I'm having the entire rear bumper wrapped in this hydrophobic film, whereas the rest of the car had a higher-end ceramic applied in 2018 (older, standard PPF still on the front end of the car, and then the roof/doors/fenders are bare paint). Will be interesting to compare the properties of these different parts of the car.
04-03-2020, 11:33 AM
#148
Have ceramic coating on 3 of my vehicles.
For me it is a no brainer .
Cars stay cleaner.
Cars easier to wash, much easier.
Drying easier.
Lasts much longer than wax.
Use 'Restore' once a month after washing.
On one car 3 years out the water beads like day 1 still.
Other 2 cars less a year with Ceramic coating, but going strong. Expect years of beading water.
For me it is a no brainer .
Cars stay cleaner.
Cars easier to wash, much easier.
Drying easier.
Lasts much longer than wax.
Use 'Restore' once a month after washing.
On one car 3 years out the water beads like day 1 still.
Other 2 cars less a year with Ceramic coating, but going strong. Expect years of beading water.
Last edited by thesaintusa; 04-03-2020 at 01:41 PM.
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04-03-2020, 01:37 PM
#149
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Bud, there are two camps on this ceramic stuff, I am with you in the "worthless" camp.
I had it on 3 previous cars and I did it again on my 991.2 and I can tell you without question on all 4 cars it did absolutely nothing.
On the last car, the PPF installer gave me an all inclusive price with the ceramic coating. He insisted on it and since the price was already lower than anyone else
I had no problem allowing him to do it. A year later its done nothing.
In addition, I used 3 different brands of coating and 3 different installers and none of them did a thing.
My two cents, I know others have rave reviews and I believe them, it just has never worked for me.
I had it on 3 previous cars and I did it again on my 991.2 and I can tell you without question on all 4 cars it did absolutely nothing.
On the last car, the PPF installer gave me an all inclusive price with the ceramic coating. He insisted on it and since the price was already lower than anyone else
I had no problem allowing him to do it. A year later its done nothing.
In addition, I used 3 different brands of coating and 3 different installers and none of them did a thing.
My two cents, I know others have rave reviews and I believe them, it just has never worked for me.
Yes it does nothing you can see. Exactly.
04-03-2020, 01:41 PM
#150
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Some very-very knowledgeable people have seen my car over the years, including many Rennlisters. They are shocked when I tell them the car has over 74,000 miles. My car looks like a sub-10,000 mile garage queen. I'm also very privileged to have one of THE top detailers (Lustr) on speed-dial.