When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Manthey racing achieved 1.05 at Hockenheim with a modified 991 RS.
Only difference from stock was 3 way suspension and magnesium wheels, same tires same engine same driver -2.7 sec difference on a short track.
I guess porsche left a lot on the table with the gen 1s in just the suspension. Hard to believe unless manthey are lying to us.
911 GTS was turning a 7:26, wasn't it? Also, where is the extra horsepower coming from in the MB? Those two points aside, I agree with you that it would help for MB to have a professional take the car around to find out what the real time was.
I'm still looking to hear anyone's thoughts on the difference in time the repaving gives. I wouldn't go so far as to say this is like a reconfigured track but it certainly makes the times apples to oranges.
and I believe a 7:22 on the optional Corsas... on the re-paving, from what I can
see its a couple of corners ... over 22km its not going to make that much difference, this is all about the improvements on the car...
for example, he crests Schwendenkruez at 252km/h ... that's *fast* also I note
that he did not lift before turning into kesselchen ... that's balsy ... and probably somewhat enabled by the new aero...
Manthey racing achieved 1.05 at Hockenheim with a modified 991 RS.
Only difference from stock was 3 way suspension and magnesium wheels, same tires same engine same driver -2.7 sec difference on a short track.
I guess porsche left a lot on the table with the gen 1s in just the suspension. Hard to believe unless manthey are lying to us.
If the unsprung ratio is correct (1lbs removed unsprung = 20lb sprung), the time is a lot related to the wheels and the fact that it has PCCB as it will be a reduction in the order of a big fat man. Plus that tray from the 991 R, people really don't give that little piece enough credit (as they don't give to the side vents on the RS to the amazing grippy front).
In terms of lap time the above is wildly optimistic.
It actually is and I was wrong regardless because there isn't a fixed ratio, apparently a 1:7 is more realistic. Now I actually have gone into it, because I was never sure about the exact ratio.
But just for info: 40lbs savings on PCCB + 20lbs on wheels.
P.S. The Formula from the very nice bimmerforums forum.
It actually is and I was wrong regardless because there isn't a fixed ratio, apparently a 1:7 is more realistic. Now I actually have gone into it, because I was never sure about the exact ratio.
But just for info: 40lbs savings on PCCB + 20lbs on wheels.
P.S. The Formula from the very nice bimmerforums forum.
I'd take issue with 7:1 as well; really need to isolate where you're losing the mass.
PCCBs save 37 lbs (new) when you consider the weight of the pads. More like 30 lbs average with both rotors half worn, and the gyroscopic effect is less because the iron rotors are smaller diameter. I did a write up here a while back that's relevant. The whole thread is best to read for context, but this post crystallizes the issue:
Here was the Porsche tire i guess is on GT3, a futher improved tire vs previus.
If anything tilt comparison its Mb use slower sport auto driver vs Porsche factory driver.:-)
Mb factory driver have alredy Done a lap and its closer to the 7min mark.(but they dont let that out, they use sport auto to communicate their speed, wich is not all a bad idé. Its more the real world preformace)
(sport auto is always nowdays with Christian 7-8 seconds slower than factory in them faster cars It seems, like 991 GT3 RS etc.)
Interesting this article says 8 out of 10 GT3's coming off the lines will be fitted with this tire. I wonder if the other 20% are fitted with a new version Dunlop? Anyone?
Interesting this article says 8 out of 10 GT3's coming off the lines will be fitted with this tire. I wonder if the other 20% are fitted with a new version Dunlop? Anyone?
I'd take issue with 7:1 as well; really need to isolate where you're losing the mass.
Me too . If you do the calcs for a wheel its about ~1.6 to 1 e.g. if your wheels were 10lbs lighter the apparent static weight reduction would be something like 16lbs.
In modern cars lighter weight wheels are more part of overall weight reduction and impact more on suspension response.
People got caught up in this stuff in detail when they were racing light weight 80hp sports car a long long time ago. the 20:1 ratio is a bit of an internet myth.
The speed of the GT3 and the time is no great surprise - Porsche recognise that if you want to improve a cars performance it has to be a complete process, they think like high performance engineers and not like value engineers e.g. lots of supportive incremental changes right through the car leading to greatly enhanced performance. They tweak everything. Look at the .1 to .2 transition on the S (steering, pdk, brakes, spring rates, helper springs, sway bars, tires, wheels, RAS, aero - let alone the engine - pretty much everything has been tweaked or changed).
I know 911 gen2 GTS Is 0,5 seconds faster around short hockenheim than 991 GT3 RS(same driver)
Originally Posted by Larry Cable
and I believe a 7:22 on the optional Corsas... on the re-paving, from what I can
see its a couple of corners ... over 22km its not going to make that much difference, this is all about the improvements on the car...
for example, he crests Schwendenkruez at 252km/h ... that's *fast* also I note
that he did not lift before turning into kesselchen ... that's balsy ... and probably somewhat enabled by the new aero...
Yes, thanks for the correction guys. 7:22 it is. They fitted a better tire to the car and it knocked 4 seconds off:
I'm still not comfortable though with the magazine's results around Hockenheim.
Originally Posted by Petevb
At least it sounds like you can buy the tires, though I agree it'll tilt comparison tests in Mercedes' favor until they become available on other cars.
Back in 2000 I ran the "One Lap of America" race with a friend. Among the 100+ entrants were two tire test engineers from Michelin. They ran a Viper fitted with what appeared to be normal street tires everyone could buy, but had in fact come directly from Michelin. They destroyed the field, including other pro drivers in on paper faster vipers. The guess was those tires were worth over 2 seconds per lap...
Since then every set of tires used in One Lap must be bought at tire rack and come marked for the race.
Sounds like Mercedes may have picked up a similar trick. At 4k per set you might as well be using hand-cut Hoosiers.
I'm beginning to think that new generation performance tires is skewing the perception of the performance potential moreso now than ever before. Just like we see more manufacturers throwing everything they have at their versions of the GT3 RS, it seems like tire suppliers are beginning to do the same. Why develop an insane track car and put runflats on it like Corvette used to do with the Z06?
The potential for noise in the lap times seems to be very much highlighted by the story Petevb alluded to above. When the current ACR Extreme is beaten by a stock Z06, I raise an eyebrow. The Viper's downforce is insane and its Kuhmos are very, very sticky (from what we know) so I would argue that a good (not even great, just good) driver should be able to make enough use of it to go faster than the Vette. And yet, that's not what we're seeing.
To bring this back on track, if MB is using the very best rubber possible, then to understand the true performance potential respective to a GT3, for example, you need to run them on the same tire and then on the best rubber available from the factory. Until then, this is more a tire manufacturer's marketing game than a car manufacturer's!
Amg supertest from sport auto, If you like info on this tire Please read- they cover a thing or 2 on the tire..
SUPERTEST MERCEDES-AMG GT R WELCOME TO THE KING CLASS His North Loop round in 7.11 minutes was a first exclamation mark. After the Supertest, the MercedesAMG GT R is now on the front line in the Champions League. We do not want to subordinate to the popular North Loop blog BridgeToGantry.com of the British Dale Lomas, but its message reminds a bit of what is currently called "Fake News". What happened? After the Mercedes-AMG GT R on 4 November 2016 with a phenomenal Nordschleife round time of 7.11 minutes had voted the fastest standard vehicle of the Supertest-History, initially mentioned blog spread a false message. "AMG and sportauto cheered with slicks at the roundabout of the AMG GT R on the Nordschleife." Justification for BridgeToGantry.com? In our Youtube video of the fast lap of the GT R, they want to have a set of slick tires recognized in a picture sequence. Only when we put a close-up of the used and street-worn tires of the type Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 ZP into the net, the bubbling of the rumors culminated. BridgeToGantry.com ruled back - and did everything right. However, the idea that we had been doing things together with AMG and used Slicks in the Supertest round is as absurd as the thought of the relegation of Bayern Munich from the First League. Of course, we would never jeopardize our credibility and the independence of the world's highly respected supertest. Point. It is not only the sport tires! According to the motto "It can not be what is not allowed", it was probably difficult for some sports car fans to bear when a Mercedes turned the sports car world on its head. With its fabulous 7.11 minutes, the AMG GT R is now officially replacing the previous Porsche 918 Spyder in the Nordschleife toplist of the super test. Today, the new superstar from Affalterbach is back in the pit lane. After the surprise on the Nordschleife, he now has to move to Hockenheim. However, on the small course, the question is not only about whether the AMG can beat the front runner 918 Spyder, but also whether its lateral dynamics are attributable mainly to the extreme sports tire. Time for a comparison of the two tires available for the AMG GT R. The new cross-dynamics hero is delivered as standard with sports tires of the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 type. For an extra charge, AMG offers the so-called AMG-Track tire. The latter sports tire called the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 ZP, the GT R, as mentioned at the beginning, also carried on during the Supertestunde on the Nordschleife in November. Compared to standard Cup 2, the option tire not only has a 10-millimeter wider format, but also a stiffer design, a special blend, a 60% reduction in front and a negative 40% reduction in the profile. The track tire has a road approval, but requires a single purchase, but is included in the price of 3950 euros. Boxenampel green, initially the Überflieger today with the serial Cup 2 to the start. A warm-up round, then a short pit stop for air pressure correction, then attack - the standard Cup 2 is comparatively faster on temperature and builds its grip level more quickly than the ZP tire. The Series Cup-2 therefore offers a good compromise between everyday convenience and race track performance. With a lap time of 1.07.4 minutes, the GT R already catapults under the top 5 in the Supertest top of the small circuit. Pit stop and tire change: The extreme sportsman does not develop his full potential for lateral dynamics but with the special Cup 2 ZP sports tire. Since the mixture of the option tire works in a considerably higher and narrower temperature window, AMG recommends this dry-grip optimized sports tire primarily for the racetrack. The ZP tire is not only very conscientiously heated up for the trip to the border area, but also the very pronounced peak of the pneus must be considered. After two warm-up sessions, the first flying lap must sit perfectly on the small course, otherwise the absolute best time can not be achieved with this tire set. Already on the second flying lap, the maximum grip level again decreases slightly and the lap time is about three tenths of a second slower. Subsequently, the ZP oscillates at a constant level. If you are a friend of this racing-like working behavior of the ZP sports tire, the GT R provides a great dynamic experience in the cross-country. When braking, he scores higher with the ZP compared to the normal Cup 2 with even higher.
NÜRBURGRING NORDSCHLEIFE Measuring conditions: air temperature 4 ° Celsius asphalt temperature 8 ° Celsius air pressure atmosphere 1015 mbar air pressure tire (front / rear) 2.2 / 2.2 bar (warm) SECTOR TIMES Length of the track 20.6 km SECTOR 1 1.21.2 min Start line T13 to bridge exit Aremberg, 3850 m SECTOR 2 1.39.2 min Bridge exit Aremberg to Item 122 Exit Ex-Mühle, 4235 m SECTOR 3 1.39.1 min Item 122 Exit ex-mill until sign Hedwigshöhe exit Hohe Acht, 4825 m SECTOR 4 1.49.9 min Shield Hedwigshöhe exit High Eight to metal bridge output gallows head, 4846 m SECTOR 5 0.41.5 min Metal bridge output gallows head to initial target curve old north loop, 2844 m 20 FROM MAXIMUM 20 POINTS Compared to the GT S, the GT R is 25 seconds faster. For this fabulous time is above all the grandiose drivability in the border area is responsible. In addition to the new helical gear, the rear axle steering, the sports tire with a high grip level and the imperceptibly regulating traction control, the active aerodynamics also contributes to the high driving stability on the north loop. In addition to the high mechanical and aerodynamic grip level, the newly designed steering system also has a positive effect. The hydraulic steering reacts precisely to the center position, but not as sharply as in the GT S. BEST LIST NORDSHOPS The competitors in comparison 1. 7.11 Mercedes-AMG GT R 2. 7.13 Porsche 918 Spyder 3. 7.22 Ferrari 488 GTB 4. 7.24 Gumpert Apollo 4. 7.24 Porsche 911 GT2 RS 6. 7.25 Lamborghini Aventador LP 700-4 7. 7.28 Lamborghini Huracán LP 610-4 7. 7.28 McLaren MP4-12C 7. 7.28 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 11. 7.32 Audi R8 V10 Plus 11. 7.32 Porsche 911 GT3 14. 7.33 Ferrari F12 Berlinetta 18. 7.34 Porsche 911 Turbo S
So, this magic tire is 1 sec faster on 2.6km short hockeheim, thats alot! But the average Joe driver will hardly be faster on this tire on the average trackday!
So Then again the same thing factory drive vs Christian lappning. Mb use Christian to lap. And he is way slower than Amg factory driver. Porsche use factory drive. I guess this thing is like even things out then.
TECHNOLOGY-SPOTLIGHT: TIRING COMPARISON CUP 2 CUP 2 ZP The graphic shows the fastest lap times, which can be achieved both with the standard tire Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (green line, 1.07.4 min) as well as with the so called AMG-Track tire of type Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 ZP (red line, 1.06 , 4 min) has been tested on the Small Course. In comparison, the option tire features not only the 10-millimeter wider format, but also the stiffer construction, its special blend and the reduced negative portion of the profile. The significantly higher grip level with the ZP is reflected in the consistently higher curve velocities and transverse acceleration values. Also the deceleration values are clearly higher with the ZP tire
HOCKENHEIMRING SMALL COURSE Measurement conditions: air temperature 13 ° Celsius asphalt temperature 23 ° Celsius air pressure atmosphere 1031 mbar air pressure tire (front / rear) 2.1 / 2.1 bar (warm) 20 FROM MAXIMUM 20 POINTS ESP off, race mode active, adaptive damper in "Sport Plus", traction control in stage 6 (three yellow, three red LEDs) - that is the recipe for the fast lap with the Mercedes-AMG GT R on the small course in Hockenheim. Almost the new cross-dynamics superstar from Affalterbach had also pushed the reigning top rider Porsche 918 Spyder. Also on the angled course the GT R scores with its easy controllability in the border area. The AMG GT R, with its fantastic grip level, shines both when braking, while steering as well as when accelerating under load. No unwanted side-steps or noticeable load-bearing suspensions spread mistrust. The V8 biturbo also contributes to the high driveability with its good response characteristics and its linear performance. In the AMG GT R, one never feels overwhelmed by the engine power at the limit. The GT R is well-motorized - but not over-powered. BEST LIST Hockenheim The competitors in comparison 1. 1.06.3 Porsche 918 Spyder 2. 1.06,4 Mercedes-AMG GT R 3. 1.07.0 Ferrari 488 GTB 4. 1.07.2 Gumpert Apollo 5. 1.07.5 Lamborghini Huracán LP 610-4 7. 1.08.5 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 11. 1.08.7 McLaren 650S 11. 1.08.7 Porsche 911 Turbo S 16. 1.09.4 Audi R8 V10 Plus 20. 1.09.6 Mercedes- AMG GT S OTHER MEASURING DATA DYNAMIC AND WIND CHANNEL 36-meter slalom 146 km / h The grip level of the Michelin Cup 2 tire with the addition "ZP" is currently not to be exceeded with road approval. This is of course only true if the tires have been brought to operating temperature beforehand. At these speeds, the high output on the rear axle is also noticeable. The GT R steers well, goes slightly crosswise during load changes, but remains well manageable at any time. LATERAL ACCELERATION 1.70 g Who would have thought that a tire-like tire would ever reach such transverse acceleration values? The high mechanical grip level of the AMG GT R is responsible for the almost incredible lateral acceleration of up to 1.7 g. The Michelin tire Sport Cup 2 ZP sports tire, which has been optimized for drygrip, plays a major role in this. EVASIVE TEST 157 km / h In the escape test with the short, hard steering pulses, the AMG requires a slight load change for a better deflection behavior. The following light quarries are easy to handle, but the alley width is simply not enough. The noticeable and visible body alignment points to a somewhat softer, north-loop-optimized chassis tuning. WIND TUNNEL Vehicle face area (A): 2.23 m2 Air drag coefficient (cW): 0.35 Air resistance index (cW x A): 0.79 The aerodynamic grip in comparison to the AMG GT S has been improved thanks to the extensively modified aerodynamics, which include, among other things, an active aero profile in the underbody and the air control system "Airpanel" (electronically controlled slats behind the front apron). Lift front axle at 200 km / h 33 kg Output rear axle at 200 km / h 54 kg
05-06-2017, 12:57 PM
. If you do the calcs for a wheel its about ~1.6 to 1 e.g. if your wheels were 10lbs lighter the apparent static weight reduction would be something like 16lbs. 
