OT: AMG GT R
06-28-2018, 07:50 PM
#766
Three Wheelin'
Very well articulated. Thanks for sharing your observation. We've had standard Mercedes Benz even when I was a small child. I got infatuated with AMG when they were an independent and excellent tuner until they got bought by Mercedes Benz. I've only had three AMGs and have kept one (2014 C63 Edition-507), because I like Naturally Aspirated engines as most engines now are turbo.
Overall I am satisfied with the Mercedes Benz brand. However, I have known a few unlucky owners who have had misfortunes on their ownership due to "Quality Issues", some of which could have caused some serious accidents, and could have resulted in some major law suits.
I shifted to totally PORSCHE as I am in firm belief it is the best reliable and durable car on the street and on the track. I would keep buying the AMG brand but the direction they are "commercializing" and "capitalizing" on the AMG brand, along with decline in quality which is a contributor to heavy depreciation, turned me off. As an example they have a new model C53, which the C-Class is fundamentally an entry level car. Then M-Benz AMG will release the CLS53. The engines on both the C53 and the CLS53 are basically the same. If I was the buyer/owner of the CLS53 which cost way much more than the C53, I would not be happy in that setup.
I would buy the standard Mercedes Benz car as I still believe they are very good cars, but held off in buying AMG, for the simple reason PORSCHE GT cars in my opinion is the better car.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
Overall I am satisfied with the Mercedes Benz brand. However, I have known a few unlucky owners who have had misfortunes on their ownership due to "Quality Issues", some of which could have caused some serious accidents, and could have resulted in some major law suits.
I shifted to totally PORSCHE as I am in firm belief it is the best reliable and durable car on the street and on the track. I would keep buying the AMG brand but the direction they are "commercializing" and "capitalizing" on the AMG brand, along with decline in quality which is a contributor to heavy depreciation, turned me off. As an example they have a new model C53, which the C-Class is fundamentally an entry level car. Then M-Benz AMG will release the CLS53. The engines on both the C53 and the CLS53 are basically the same. If I was the buyer/owner of the CLS53 which cost way much more than the C53, I would not be happy in that setup.
I would buy the standard Mercedes Benz car as I still believe they are very good cars, but held off in buying AMG, for the simple reason PORSCHE GT cars in my opinion is the better car.
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
First needs to be said that I don't wish anyone on here ill-will and bad luck with their vehicles. I wanted to chime into the conversation because this subject (German car reliable and how Porsche stacks up) has been a point of interest for me for a few years now. My observations are as follows:
- When one speaks of a reliability, are we actually talking about reliability or about durability? There is overlap because, as I would define it, durability is reliability under more extreme conditions (many miles or hard use like track or off road use)
- When reliability studies are conducted, are we talking about a) reliability b) reliability of ALL components, including those that will not get the car from point A to point B or c) customer satisfaction with "quality" (my seat is squeaky)
- Reliability surveys are often affected by certain major ticket items (think the Gen 1 991 GT3 engines). The rest of the car seemed pretty darn good but for one major mistake
- In some cases there seem to be discrepancies in quality and reliability between cars built in certain parts of the world (the American product vs. what is built and sold in Europe).
- My observations about the brands are as follows:
- Porsche have always made durable cars. In recent years, they have been in many cases reliable cars as well.
- Newer MB put a huge emphasis on technology (because people put technology and luxury together) and they have therefore become more complicated and thus are more prone to failure. I have also seen a slip in their overall quality (panel gaps, interior materials, longer-term reliability (durability) of certain components. I'm not sure how AMG specifically fits into this but I will make the observation that the quality really falls off in the cheaper segments.
- Old school (pre-1995) MBs were on all fronts (relatively reliable, durable,and fantastic quality)
- Audis were pretty unreliable until less than a decade ago when something appears to have changed (less parts sharing with VW maybe)? They are probably the first or second most reliable brand and the quality is very good (fit, finish, and materials). I've never tracked one and don't know about what other people's experiences have been so I can't speak to that.
I'm going off a combination of speaking with owners/mechanics, the TUV ratings, Consumer Reports, and JD Power. The indices all use different criteria for their rating although the TUV has a longer-term approach and you can see longer-term reliability more easily.
- When one speaks of a reliability, are we actually talking about reliability or about durability? There is overlap because, as I would define it, durability is reliability under more extreme conditions (many miles or hard use like track or off road use)
- When reliability studies are conducted, are we talking about a) reliability b) reliability of ALL components, including those that will not get the car from point A to point B or c) customer satisfaction with "quality" (my seat is squeaky)
- Reliability surveys are often affected by certain major ticket items (think the Gen 1 991 GT3 engines). The rest of the car seemed pretty darn good but for one major mistake
- In some cases there seem to be discrepancies in quality and reliability between cars built in certain parts of the world (the American product vs. what is built and sold in Europe).
- My observations about the brands are as follows:
- Porsche have always made durable cars. In recent years, they have been in many cases reliable cars as well.
- Newer MB put a huge emphasis on technology (because people put technology and luxury together) and they have therefore become more complicated and thus are more prone to failure. I have also seen a slip in their overall quality (panel gaps, interior materials, longer-term reliability (durability) of certain components. I'm not sure how AMG specifically fits into this but I will make the observation that the quality really falls off in the cheaper segments.
- Old school (pre-1995) MBs were on all fronts (relatively reliable, durable,and fantastic quality)
- Audis were pretty unreliable until less than a decade ago when something appears to have changed (less parts sharing with VW maybe)? They are probably the first or second most reliable brand and the quality is very good (fit, finish, and materials). I've never tracked one and don't know about what other people's experiences have been so I can't speak to that.
I'm going off a combination of speaking with owners/mechanics, the TUV ratings, Consumer Reports, and JD Power. The indices all use different criteria for their rating although the TUV has a longer-term approach and you can see longer-term reliability more easily.
06-30-2018, 09:57 PM
#768
my personal belief is that the build quality of the Porsche GT cars are amazing and un-equaled though with no turbo and the small engine displacement the enjoyment of any GT3 driving away from the track is a waste of model as they have no torque below 6000 revs which is very frustrating for me.
in all threads and reviews on these cars no one ever mentioned this lack of low down torque as an issue. Not until I mentioned it. Then all said it is a GT3 trait and everyone said I had bought the wrong car. This is true so
Gt3 bought and sold now GTR enroute.
07-01-2018, 06:46 AM
#769
my personal belief is that the build quality of the Porsche GT cars are amazing and un-equaled though with no turbo and the small engine displacement the enjoyment of any GT3 driving away from the track is a waste of model as they have no torque below 6000 revs which is very frustrating for me.
in all threads and reviews on these cars no one ever mentioned this lack of low down torque as an issue. Not until I mentioned it. Then all said it is a GT3 trait and everyone said I had bought the wrong car. This is true so
Gt3 bought and sold now GTR enroute.
Depends on what you like in a Sportscar i suppose..
07-01-2018, 07:42 AM
#770
IME its only an issue on the 991.1 GT3 and not so much on the gen 2..My gen 2 feels it has substantially more low down torque than the paper figures implies. Of course when compared to the twin turbo torque monster Merc GTR then any NASP GT Porsches will feel under endowed in comparison..
Depends on what you like in a Sportscar i suppose..
Depends on what you like in a Sportscar i suppose..
my car was a 991.2 it lasted a week.
the issue is I am use to v8’s and high powered tourque based cars and never had a GT3 before.
Previous P car was a PDK twin turbo and I thought the GT3 would be better . For me it was not.
So Amg gtr should do the job
07-01-2018, 10:29 AM
#771
Race Director
So far good luck with my 2018 AMG C63 in 7 months ownership....Personally I’m a Porsche guy especially for a track and street car....but Porsche is making it very hard to go buy a new GT Porsche where AMG is not doing this with the AMG GT cars.
I got to drive a AMG GTR at Road Atlanta back in May...nice car, but I fit better and feel more at home in a Porsche 991 car.
I got to drive a AMG GTR at Road Atlanta back in May...nice car, but I fit better and feel more at home in a Porsche 991 car.
07-01-2018, 11:50 AM
#772
Instructor
From a power standpoint I’m not sure why anyone would assume a NA 6 would suffice or live up to the torque or low end power of a V8, much less a TT V8. In so many respects the GT3 and GTR are two very different cars. They both have their own signature qualities and characters. For me it was the reason I chose to own both cars.
07-01-2018, 12:48 PM
#773
Rennlist Member
Take the revs up, have it in the right gear, modulate the throttle and torque challenge goes away.....even around town......991.2 GT3 works well........part of the experience........anyone can mash the accelerator on a V8 or 12 and go seamlessly forward.......did that at 16 with an old 390 Ford XL.....
07-01-2018, 01:25 PM
#774
Three Wheelin'
Perfect. Real experiences. 
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
Take the revs up, have it in the right gear, modulate the throttle and torque challenge goes away.....even around town......991.2 GT3 works well........part of the experience........anyone can mash the accelerator on a V8 or 12 and go seamlessly forward.......did that at 16 with an old 390 Ford XL.....
07-01-2018, 01:30 PM
#775
Burning Brakes
My 2014 AMG E63S has been faultless with ZERO problems over 12,000 Miles and my Choice for 600 mile vacation touring days.
My wife's 2010 MB E-350 has also been faultless since new and over 35,000 miles. My worst MB for quality (truly miserable) was my 1993
MB E500 built for MB by Porsche (sabotage?) and for durability was my 2000 ML350 with multiple system failures after 50K Miles.
But after 50 years of owning several dozen Porsches (for fun and track) and Mercedes (for kids and family) IMHO, both Brands have
comparable high reliability and quality standards, the few really bad ones, such as my early poor quality 1966 912, 911 and 928's being outliers.
What I have learned, is that the FIRST manufacturing year of ANY new car model from ANY manufacturer will not have been perfected yet
and "teething" problems should be expected.
My wife's 2010 MB E-350 has also been faultless since new and over 35,000 miles. My worst MB for quality (truly miserable) was my 1993
MB E500 built for MB by Porsche (sabotage?) and for durability was my 2000 ML350 with multiple system failures after 50K Miles.
But after 50 years of owning several dozen Porsches (for fun and track) and Mercedes (for kids and family) IMHO, both Brands have
comparable high reliability and quality standards, the few really bad ones, such as my early poor quality 1966 912, 911 and 928's being outliers.
What I have learned, is that the FIRST manufacturing year of ANY new car model from ANY manufacturer will not have been perfected yet
and "teething" problems should be expected.
07-01-2018, 06:38 PM
#776
Take the revs up, have it in the right gear, modulate the throttle and torque challenge goes away.....even around town......991.2 GT3 works well........part of the experience........anyone can mash the accelerator on a V8 or 12 and go seamlessly forward.......did that at 16 with an old 390 Ford XL.....
i did try that, issue was I sounded like a ****, revving my car like a teenager doing 60kmph.
Just was not for me, GT car is for track only,
the other issue at high revs the gearing is so tall you can only use first gear , 2nd gear red line is 125kmph.
Track car only and for a track I would prefer a radical for 1/4 the cost.
07-01-2018, 06:52 PM
#777
Drifting
i did try that, issue was I sounded like a ****, revving my car like a teenager doing 60kmph.
Just was not for me, GT car is for track only,
the other issue at high revs the gearing is so tall you can only use first gear , 2nd gear red line is 125kmph.
Track car only and for a track I would prefer a radical for 1/4 the cost.
the other issue at high revs the gearing is so tall you can only use first gear , 2nd gear red line is 125kmph.
Track car only and for a track I would prefer a radical for 1/4 the cost.
I was out on switchback mountain roads today with a fellow .2 GT3 owner and Rennlister. We both have 6-speeds. No issues at all with a "lack of torque" or gears that are "too tall." If you want to go fast from a stop light, while keeping the car under the speed limit, then yeah... the GT3 is the wrong choice. I think I glanced at the speedo once today and we were doing F@CK You speeds with the tach pinned close to redline. That's what this car is all about. You'll definitely be happier with the GTR.
07-01-2018, 07:13 PM
#778
The GT3 is not a stop sign to stop sign car.
I was out on switchback mountain roads today with a fellow .2 GT3 owner and Rennlister. We both have 6-speeds. No issues at all with a "lack of torque" or gears that are "too tall." If you want to go fast from a stop light, while keeping the car under the speed limit, then yeah... the GT3 is the wrong choice. I think I glanced at the speedo once today and we were doing F@CK You speeds with the tach pinned close to redline. That's what this car is all about. You'll definitely be happier with the GTR.
I was out on switchback mountain roads today with a fellow .2 GT3 owner and Rennlister. We both have 6-speeds. No issues at all with a "lack of torque" or gears that are "too tall." If you want to go fast from a stop light, while keeping the car under the speed limit, then yeah... the GT3 is the wrong choice. I think I glanced at the speedo once today and we were doing F@CK You speeds with the tach pinned close to redline. That's what this car is all about. You'll definitely be happier with the GTR.
And that’s only using 3 gears .
It’s not a car for public roads to get any enjoyment from it. Unless of course you are prepared to go to some decent risks.
07-01-2018, 07:19 PM
#779
Rennlist Member
this is why I sold the car the only way to get the best from the car is doing “**** you” speeds. 3rd gear red line is 3x our speed limit and offers jail time.
And that’s only using 3 gears .
It’s not a car for public roads to get any enjoyment from it. Unless of course you are prepared to go to some decent risks.
07-01-2018, 07:27 PM
#780
Rennlist Member
Different strokes for different folks......my experience is that with the PDK, which I have, in regular mode in the right gear, it lacks no torque for that 25-75 regular road use....I remember getting on the gas in my AMG and it was instantaneous with no drama and then backing off the gas and coasting to highway speed limits.........