Rennsport V Report...Let's start with the talk of Andreas Preuninger!
10-01-2015, 10:06 PM
#181
Who reports the order to PCNA?
PCNA has no way to verify a legitimate customer order vs a dealer using one of their database entry to create a bogus one.
Ferrari dealers are master of doing that. Porsche dealers are just getting the hang of it.
In the end, the problem always ends with the dealers being the primary suspect.
PCNA has no way to verify a legitimate customer order vs a dealer using one of their database entry to create a bogus one.
Ferrari dealers are master of doing that. Porsche dealers are just getting the hang of it.
In the end, the problem always ends with the dealers being the primary suspect.
Not a perfect approach, but certainly a lot better and levels the playing field.
10-01-2015, 10:08 PM
#182
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Nate:
a) So you think Detlev & PCNA handled allocations of gt3, RS and
gt4s poorly. What data do we have to support the charge that the
allocation process was mismanaged by Detlev & PCNA? Although
I was critical that Detlev was not able prevent dealers from charging
a markup over MSRP on some desirable gt3 allocations*, I don't
think we have proof of actual malfeasance, or incompetence, on
his part!
b) Surely a better system would have been to allocate more of the
desirable cars to dealers where either you or I had deposits, right?
In my case, I didn't get lucky. In your case, you got a few allocations.
So what is the basis of the particular complaint?
c) Should these nebulous accusations be enough to prevent him from
being considered for promotion to CEO of Porsche at some future date?
Does it also perhaps disqualify him from his new job as PAG's Global
Sales & Marketing head? I don't think so.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
* I sent Detlev an email re: how a few US dealers (albeit independent
franchised businesses, which they are!) were adding a markup over MSRP
to some of the 30 PTS (Signal Green, Arena Red, Fashion Grey) '15 gt3s,
to which he never responded.
Post #32
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ey-gt3s-3.html
So he is definitely NOT a 'perfect' manager, I'll grant you that!
Who is 'infallible'? Not even this particular pope! But overall Detlev
was a successful & charismatic leader at PCNA during his tenure!
a) So you think Detlev & PCNA handled allocations of gt3, RS and
gt4s poorly. What data do we have to support the charge that the
allocation process was mismanaged by Detlev & PCNA? Although
I was critical that Detlev was not able prevent dealers from charging
a markup over MSRP on some desirable gt3 allocations*, I don't
think we have proof of actual malfeasance, or incompetence, on
his part!
b) Surely a better system would have been to allocate more of the
desirable cars to dealers where either you or I had deposits, right?
In my case, I didn't get lucky. In your case, you got a few allocations.
So what is the basis of the particular complaint?
c) Should these nebulous accusations be enough to prevent him from
being considered for promotion to CEO of Porsche at some future date?
Does it also perhaps disqualify him from his new job as PAG's Global
Sales & Marketing head? I don't think so.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
* I sent Detlev an email re: how a few US dealers (albeit independent
franchised businesses, which they are!) were adding a markup over MSRP
to some of the 30 PTS (Signal Green, Arena Red, Fashion Grey) '15 gt3s,
to which he never responded.
Post #32
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ey-gt3s-3.html
So he is definitely NOT a 'perfect' manager, I'll grant you that!
Who is 'infallible'? Not even this particular pope! But overall Detlev
was a successful & charismatic leader at PCNA during his tenure!
I tend to side with Eduardo on this....this is only my opinion and many can disagree but IMO Detlev and PCNA have done a very good job based on production/information provided by mothership. They have an obligation to the entire country's regional areas and must come up with an allocation system that is both as fair possible to dealer body (and dealers police it all the time for fairness) while at times getting slow and sometimes confusing communication from infrastructure in Germany. Unfortunately someone is always going to suffer even in the perfect world but having demand that overrides supply is not always the easiest customer service hurdle to get over. Also, within that mix you have each dealer with a seemingly different manner in which they handle the customer and you can imagine the layers of complications PCNA deals with. Nothing is perfect but Detlev/PCNA have handled most obstacles recently with a reasonable approach (engine recalls on big scale, short production numbers vs demand, requests for production increase with delayed response or "no" as response, etc). PLEASE REMEMBER PCNA DOSENT PRODUCE THE CARS! Eduardo and I have debated in the past (with the utmost respect I might add despite the fact we occasionally feel differently....you're still the man Eduardo!) ultimate influence of PCNA on certain issues. Yes PCNA has some limited input on certain items or designs and a lot of begging is done behind closed doors that we will never know about to help get our market what we want (or more of it) and customer concern items that PAG is responsible for but we must all realize that PAG must say yes to these requests!? Just my 2 cents!!
10-01-2015, 10:19 PM
#183
Drifting
There are many companies that are VERY protective of their image and have a pretty iron fist when when dealing with their resellers.
Many times companies and retailers forget the basic principles of sales and making money. The customer! Especially in good economic times. It's easy to blow through 100K+ cars when the stock market is flying the the gov't is printing money as fast as the presses can. Everyone looks like a golden boy then.
One time an older successful businessman told me a story about someone asking who the boss was. He then pointed to the customers in the place of business we were in, and said "they're the boss". True, isn't it?
Porsche has a VERY loyal customer base at the enthusiast level. Obviously, they've been overshadowed my the Macan/Cayenne crowd. At the end of the day, those loyal ones will support you through thick/thin. Until ... You start taking them for granted. Then, a slow erosion starts.
The USA is one of Porsche's biggest markets right? You'd think such great marketers of automobiles would be just as good marketers to their loyal buyers. Doesn't seem to be the case. Call PCNA, and they don't know you from Joe Dingbat. Even though you may be on your 10th Porsche. You'd think anyone interested in really maximizing their marketing, would have extensive Intel on their most loyal customers. Doesn't seem to be the case. It's always more expensive advertising to the masses. Maybe the plan is to broaden the reach and go after those new sales since the loyals will support you anyway. After all, the Porsche clubs are out there doing the dirty work catering to the enthusiasts.
The true challenge will come when the economic party takes a break, and only then will the scrambling start to appreciate "the boss".
It's easy to look the other way, ignore things, and pull out the charisma card. As they say, easy come, easy go.
All this Internet message board chatter isn't anything to worry about is it? Or is there something to be learned from it. I'd call it free advice ...
Many times companies and retailers forget the basic principles of sales and making money. The customer! Especially in good economic times. It's easy to blow through 100K+ cars when the stock market is flying the the gov't is printing money as fast as the presses can. Everyone looks like a golden boy then.
One time an older successful businessman told me a story about someone asking who the boss was. He then pointed to the customers in the place of business we were in, and said "they're the boss". True, isn't it?
Porsche has a VERY loyal customer base at the enthusiast level. Obviously, they've been overshadowed my the Macan/Cayenne crowd. At the end of the day, those loyal ones will support you through thick/thin. Until ... You start taking them for granted. Then, a slow erosion starts.
The USA is one of Porsche's biggest markets right? You'd think such great marketers of automobiles would be just as good marketers to their loyal buyers. Doesn't seem to be the case. Call PCNA, and they don't know you from Joe Dingbat. Even though you may be on your 10th Porsche. You'd think anyone interested in really maximizing their marketing, would have extensive Intel on their most loyal customers. Doesn't seem to be the case. It's always more expensive advertising to the masses. Maybe the plan is to broaden the reach and go after those new sales since the loyals will support you anyway. After all, the Porsche clubs are out there doing the dirty work catering to the enthusiasts.
The true challenge will come when the economic party takes a break, and only then will the scrambling start to appreciate "the boss".
It's easy to look the other way, ignore things, and pull out the charisma card. As they say, easy come, easy go.
All this Internet message board chatter isn't anything to worry about is it? Or is there something to be learned from it. I'd call it free advice ...
However, it has been my experience in other products (sorry to keep using a non auto example) as long as Porsche continues to build the best valued GT cars on the planet the customers will end up back at their door regardless of how they treat their customers. Usually, until the quality of products either go backwards or there is new competition entered into the segment nothing changes. I don't see either of that happening anytime soon. Porsche simply has no competition in their segment and they have such strong branding....
10-01-2015, 10:35 PM
#184
Race Director
Originally Posted by Mr. Adair
Spot on!
However, it has been my experience in other products (sorry to keep using a non auto example) as long as Porsche continues to build the best valued GT cars on the planet the customers will end up back at their door regardless of how they treat their customers. Usually, until the quality of products either go backwards or there is new competition entered into the segment nothing changes. I don't see either of that happening anytime soon. Porsche simply has no competition in their segment and they have such strong branding....
However, it has been my experience in other products (sorry to keep using a non auto example) as long as Porsche continues to build the best valued GT cars on the planet the customers will end up back at their door regardless of how they treat their customers. Usually, until the quality of products either go backwards or there is new competition entered into the segment nothing changes. I don't see either of that happening anytime soon. Porsche simply has no competition in their segment and they have such strong branding....
100K+ cars aren't easy to sell though when the economic party takes a rest. Only then will the contact lists come out and potential buyers iPhones won't stop ringing.
Waiting lists will turn into paper airplanes in dealer showrooms.
I'm done with this conversation. At the end of the day, it's just a waste of time
Last edited by STG; 10-01-2015 at 11:11 PM.
10-01-2015, 11:12 PM
#185
Three Wheelin'
I'm not sure you ultimately understand the factors that must legally go into allocation methodology to remain compliant to the in place dealer agreements? I guess PCNA could just crumple them up and hope no one takes legal recourse?
10-01-2015, 11:17 PM
#186
It's not included in the franchise agreement - it just spells out the obligations for dealers to buy cars etc. It actually gives PCNA a lot of flexibility on allocations, but makes it very difficult to terminate franchises without a breach from the dealers.
10-01-2015, 11:54 PM
#187
Three Wheelin'
Sure but the impact to dealer agreement comes when a dealer feels that a change to allocation process is impacting the ability to fairly earn inventory for dealer to hit the market efficiency number they are required to hit in dealer agreement? I assure you PCNA is not going through the complicated web to change it when specific market areas could be impacted
10-02-2015, 12:31 AM
#188
Rennlist Member
Absolutely correct.
The dealers are actually Porsche's customers. We end users are customers of the dealers'. While the dealers ultimately are representatives of Porsche, they do have more sway with Porsche over end users.
There was actually a big 3 way fight between the dealers, 918 owners and Porsche. In the end, we the 918 owners were told basically with the VIP program we ended up bypassing the dealers' games, so what do we care? Well we do care cause everyone thinks we are the bad guys who hogs the allocations.
It isn't actually my fight, I am Canadian, and Canadian dealers can't add market adjustments, and Canada doesn't have that PCNA VIP program, but I do get what I want from Porsche Canada simply because I am one of the earliest 918 buyer here. I am in the fight because I am kind of the frontman for the 918 owners group and fight for my fellow American buyers.
The dealers are actually Porsche's customers. We end users are customers of the dealers'. While the dealers ultimately are representatives of Porsche, they do have more sway with Porsche over end users.
There was actually a big 3 way fight between the dealers, 918 owners and Porsche. In the end, we the 918 owners were told basically with the VIP program we ended up bypassing the dealers' games, so what do we care? Well we do care cause everyone thinks we are the bad guys who hogs the allocations.
It isn't actually my fight, I am Canadian, and Canadian dealers can't add market adjustments, and Canada doesn't have that PCNA VIP program, but I do get what I want from Porsche Canada simply because I am one of the earliest 918 buyer here. I am in the fight because I am kind of the frontman for the 918 owners group and fight for my fellow American buyers.
10-02-2015, 04:08 AM
#189
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Yes, 918 owners are buying cars at MSRP, no funny business like 'market adjustments'.
PCNA sold 297 cars, but quite a few buyers bought multiple 918s, and those are not likely to buy 2 or 3 of everything, So that drops the VIP allocations to say around 250 or so.
But then some of the 918 buyers are also dealer principals, they don't need the 918 owner status to get 1st dib on everything, but some of these dealer owners also bought multiple 918s so they can flip later, and they for sure ARE ordering multiples in order to flip. If you take these out also, and real allocations to real 918 VIP will be between 150-200. It really isn't a big chunk out of whatever models.
In the end, the bad guys are not the real 918 owners. It's your 'friendly' neighbourhood Porsche dealers. They are the one jacking up MSRP in the first place, and they are all the ones that flips 918 VIP allocations.
PCNA sold 297 cars, but quite a few buyers bought multiple 918s, and those are not likely to buy 2 or 3 of everything, So that drops the VIP allocations to say around 250 or so.
But then some of the 918 buyers are also dealer principals, they don't need the 918 owner status to get 1st dib on everything, but some of these dealer owners also bought multiple 918s so they can flip later, and they for sure ARE ordering multiples in order to flip. If you take these out also, and real allocations to real 918 VIP will be between 150-200. It really isn't a big chunk out of whatever models.
In the end, the bad guys are not the real 918 owners. It's your 'friendly' neighbourhood Porsche dealers. They are the one jacking up MSRP in the first place, and they are all the ones that flips 918 VIP allocations.
Let's not forget the fine print though:
©2012 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. Porsche Cars North America, Inc. (PCNA) reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to cancel, terminate, modify, or suspend this program and to vary or modify any of thea bove terms and conditions from time to time without prior notice. In case of dispute regarding eligibility or other program terms, PCNA’s decision shall be final and binding. Porsche recommends seat belt usageand observance of all traffic laws at all times
So in short, PCNA can do what they want and PCNA has a new CEO now. Do they care that much if they upset 297 customers? Who knows...
©2012 Porsche Cars North America, Inc. Porsche Cars North America, Inc. (PCNA) reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to cancel, terminate, modify, or suspend this program and to vary or modify any of thea bove terms and conditions from time to time without prior notice. In case of dispute regarding eligibility or other program terms, PCNA’s decision shall be final and binding. Porsche recommends seat belt usageand observance of all traffic laws at all times
So in short, PCNA can do what they want and PCNA has a new CEO now. Do they care that much if they upset 297 customers? Who knows...
10-02-2015, 11:40 PM
#190
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That has (unfortunately) been the case for quite a while, but IMO the AMG GT/S may finally be offering Porsche credible competition at a similar price. It remains to be seen how durable it is on track, but the preliminary review from Randy Pobst is glowing, and FWIW it's Motor Trend's 2015 Driver's Car of the Year (over the GT4).
10-03-2015, 06:46 AM
#191
Rennlist Member
This is the first I have heard of the engine case being a problem and certainly doesn't mean that this isn't an issue but I have doubt that the case design (or possible casting issue during production) is a problem across all engines......I have heard from tech department of isolated reports of case castings having porous sections that will seep oil, I have heard of occasional internal issues, I have heard of valve train issues, and with these they are very small or rare occurances but if they are insinuating that the case is not able to handle the stress of 9k rpms then typically you would see different issues (from what has been reported by both people here and tech department) as a result.
If there is an issue with the GT3 engine it will be lubrication related. Most of us owners knows the car can burn between 250-500cc oil during a hard track day. Above 8500 everything is working hard. The issue is less pronounced in the RS as it runs to 8600 in sport auto. The issue if it's acknowledged is likely to be crank case related but not strength rather oil wind age and blow back if over filled. Lubrication of valve train at cold start could be an issue. I now have 9000 miles and just completed 3 track days in the last week. Car does not seem to smoke in start up any more. I think the car is just sensitive to being abused cold start. Regardless I don't think they will build another 9000 rpm engine. The car is all about the engine in the991 GT3. I drove a 996.2 GT3 for the first time in 10 years last week (a friend we swapped cars). Hen I owned one after 993RS the thing I liked most was the engine. After the 991 GT3 the engine seemed a bit underwhelming....
Sorry...back on topic....
10-03-2015, 07:00 AM
#192
Abnormal times, the tide will go out and the "brain surgeons" at dealers will be sales people again.
10-03-2015, 09:21 AM
#193
Originally Posted by Manifold
That has (unfortunately) been the case for quite a while, but IMO the AMG GT/S may finally be offering Porsche credible competition at a similar price. It remains to be seen how durable it is on track, but the preliminary review from Randy Pobst is glowing, and FWIW it's Motor Trend's 2015 Driver's Car of the Year (over the GT4).
10-03-2015, 09:44 AM
#194
Three Wheelin'
Just drove one myself on track and couldn't agree more with above but If Randy likes it it says a lot. My sense is that he was probably surprised because he was expecting a drive similar to its predecessors.
10-03-2015, 02:39 PM
#195
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member