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Thanks Jeff for the clarification. Your words are Shakespear-ean. Can you tell me if Ferrodo makes a track brake pad suitable for use with the Ceramic Rotors? If so, will it also work as street pad; do you handle it and what's its availability in the USA market? Cheers
Thank you. Will Ferodo racing pads work with Ceramic Rotors? Technically, the answer is yes. The Ferodo DS1.11 / DSUNO materials actually work fine on ceramic discs (most if not all of the CC discs on the market are siliconised carbon discs...hence forming effectively an in situ Silcon carbide structure (Google that if you want your brain to hurt). When I say they work fine, I mean they work fine 99% of the time. When the brake starts to work truly hard though, the low thermal diffusivity of the CC disc means a lot of the heat stays at the interface with the pad, and the pads can wear away rapidly. That's when things can turn ugly. Iron backing plates being squeezed against CC discs gets expensive in a real hurry!
As such, our response to this question is a polite, "No, thank you." Our approach has always been to steer clear of recommending any Ferodo materials for use against ceramic discs. The potential cost of damaging a customer's very expensive discs when he runs the pads to the backplate outweighs the profit potential of the pad sales. For us, it's just not worth the risk of recommending them. I suppose the same case can be made for any brake pad with an iron backing plate (which is pretty much all of them), but we just don't want to be entangled in any potential messes.
Therefore, our official Ferodo / Essex recommendation on Ferodo racing pads is that we do not recommend running them on PCCB's.
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'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs Ferodo Racing Brake Pads Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030 jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
All my predictions have come true.. Heavy hitters discussing complexities like "brake torque gain"... and wars over "emergency vs parking".. yep folks.. It's the annual "pccb vs steel thread" + apologies. (That last word identifying this years thread as being more Canadian in provenance)
LOL...Please sir, take three large steps away from your crystal ball before someone gets hurt!
Our next topic of discussion, "Manual vs. PDK"....who's with me?
If this helps: I have many customers who have switched from PCCB rotors to GiroDisc steels - and use the PCCB pads with great success on the steels. A data point that can be used in the decision process.
**We also now carry the FULL LINE of PFC pads, and have them, IN STOCK for the 991 GT3 steel rotor cars.** PM or better yet e-mail
WE have the front AP rotors for the 991 GT3 in stock and expect the rears
toward the end of August. We also stock the Ferodo DS1.11 pads for the 991 GT3
and have the full line of all PFC pads for Porsche in stock at our facility.
As reported by Joe Kou of Ortho Joe's Track Build Journal fame ,,,,,,he and many other 991GT3 drivers prefer DS1.11 over the PFC 11 compound.
Emergency brake should never be confused with parking brake. Emergency is deployed so you can stop the car to a safe place when the hydraulic system failed. - It's like an insurance policy that you may not use it but...
Our brake design is based on the 'actual' mechanism of the rear drum brake and the guidance published by FMSI (Friction Materials Standard Institute)
Porsche 991 GT3 Rear Spindle with Shoe Brake (Same as 997, 996):
Rear Brake FMSI# 1652-S975
Aluminum can't sustain to the brake heat, and here is a note #7 from Brembo's BBK installation remarks (you can find this from Brembo's brake kit catalog) echoing to this principle:
7. Not for road use. This system eliminates the parking/emergency brake function
We use aluminum shell and insert an iron ring enough to cover the shoe - It's light weight but can handle the heat w/o damaging or warping the hat. Same design is used in some of the super muscle cars like GT-R, Corvette and Camaro that comes with rear drum brakes.
We simply present the facts and our design principle, it's not our intention to get into debating, unlike marketing physics and material science can only based on the data and hard facts.
One last time...the OEM rear disc hat on the 991 GT3 as delivered from the factory is raw aluminum! Porsche cars are delivered from the factory to meet all federal requirements for road-worthiness in the USA. Obviously Porsche isn't concerned about the safety of using that setup...neither are we. Those are the facts. I'm not going to waste another word on this topic.
I already have visions of setting the rotors and on pads fire, shootingblack crap out of the front wheels F1 style in the RS.
Not that much more brakes on the 991 than the 997RS. And those I had 2" brake cooling pipes through the front and 3" NACA ducts from the bottom....
Higher speeds, higher weight (Specially me, fat 90L tank), tons more grip, no more pussyfoot breaking while heel n toeing, just ramming the pedal through the floor while we let the PTV rear diff figure it out...
Than we go to Sebring after 20 or so track days in Europe. What could go wrong?
I'm gonna call it the purple brake punisher...
Lets go for durability, these fixed caliper deals are no fun to do brake pad changes on by yourself on a jacked up car.
No need to worry much about brake torque gain or parking brake issues you brake nerds like to talk about. He who makes the pads and rotors that stop the car till the end and makes them last the longest wins. This may mean calipers.
I already have visions of setting the rotors and on pads fire, shootingblack crap out of the front wheels F1 style in the RS.
Not that much more brakes on the 991 than the 997RS. And those I had 2" brake cooling pipes through the front and 3" NACA ducts from the bottom....
Higher speeds, higher weight (Specially me, fat 90L tank), tons more grip, no more pussyfoot breaking while heel n toeing, just ramming the pedal through the floor while we let the PTV rear diff figure it out...
Than we go to Sebring after 20 or so track days in Europe. What could go wrong?
I'm gonna call it the purple brake punisher...
Lets go for durability, these fixed caliper deals are no fun to do brake pad changes on by yourself on a jacked up car.
No need to worry much about brake torque gain or parking brake issues you brake nerds like to talk about. He who makes the pads and rotors that stop the car till the end and makes them last the longest wins. This may mean calipers.
Agree.
RB has been in quest of the ultimate braking combination, following the CCM rotors we are in development sintered pad exclusively for CCM rotors (ZR1 and ST discs)
This project is in cooperation with Surface Transforms, and they will test these sintered pads (and Endless W007) on their dyno so they can compare with Pagid RS29 they are familiar with.
We all know more options and choice is always better for consumers, which we found CCM brake pads is lacking.
Anyone interested in this topic can following our development and test thread in GTR forum:
I already have visions of setting the rotors and on pads fire, shootingblack crap out of the front wheels F1 style in the RS.
Not that much more brakes on the 991 than the 997RS. And those I had 2" brake cooling pipes through the front and 3" NACA ducts from the bottom....
Higher speeds, higher weight (Specially me, fat 90L tank), tons more grip, no more pussyfoot breaking while heel n toeing, just ramming the pedal through the floor while we let the PTV rear diff figure it out...
Than we go to Sebring after 20 or so track days in Europe. What could go wrong?
I'm gonna call it the purple brake punisher...
Lets go for durability, these fixed caliper deals are no fun to do brake pad changes on by yourself on a jacked up car.
No need to worry much about brake torque gain or parking brake issues you brake nerds like to talk about. He who makes the pads and rotors that stop the car till the end and makes them last the longest wins. This may mean calipers.
Purple...nice! Your build is going to be bold...looking forward to seeing that one. I like brightly-colored track cars. They're fun and easy to see!
I hear you. Back to the task at hand. Here's what we're looking at potentially putting on the 991 GT3/RS/GT4. We're shipping our first Corvette kits using these components over the next few days (please excuse the messy pic formatting on our website...we've been pulling images from our new website that's in development, and haven't had time to edit them). These bits are darn similar to what we just supplied Pratt & Miller with to win their class at Le Mans in the C7.R's. They are built on AP Racing's Radi-CAL design philosophy, and are the next evolution of racing calipers. To say they reduce the time required for pad changes is the understatement of the century. They also weigh about half of what an OEM 991 GT3 caliper weighs, and they use a beefy 25mm thick pad (1 inch).
AP Racing CP9668
AP Racing CP9668 Radi-CAL with fast-change spring clip bridge installed
Ventilated, domed-back, stainless steel pistons with anti-knockback springs
Here's the painted silver version...
Please don't call and email asking when you can get them. Thanks. I don't know yet. We're still evaluating if we can make them work on these cars. We've been tied up with our other applications, but we're getting ready to dig in.
Last edited by JRitt@essex; 07-16-2015 at 05:20 PM.
So how do you know that the brake bias is like the factory? These new self driving cars I assume have delicate ABS PTV algorithms to allow the computers from me balling the car into a wall and stuff.
I hear that if you launch this app the car will just lap for you and you can take pics of the car from the pit wall.
As long as they come in Pre-Torched burned brown grey, so I look like I go to the track at cars-n-cafe, were good on the finish.
So how do you know that the brake bias is like the factory? These new self driving cars I assume have delicate ABS PTV algorithms to allow the computers from me balling the car into a wall and stuff.
I hear that if you launch this app the car will just lap for you and you can take pics of the car from the pit wall.
As long as they come in Pre-Torched burned brown grey, so I look like I go to the track at cars-n-cafe, were good on the finish.
You have to make sure the combination of the piston sizes and disc diameter achieves a brake torque output that is very close to stock. As long as that is the case, the electronics all do their thing seamlessly. All else held equal, if you go up on disc diameter, you do down in overall piston area. If you go down in disc diameter, you go up in piston size.
So you're buying the drone version eh? Nice.
Our standard racing calipers are all anodized grey for durability under heavy track temps.
All kidding aside, thanks to the vendors taking the time to explain and answer (my stupid) questions.
I'll start with OEM day one and maybe just SRF and decent track pads to get me through the first 20 track days in Europe, that should be 2 sets of pads or so to take me to my 6000KM limit. 1000 or so will be street so that doesn't count.
After that its mostly Sebring and that will good opportunity to compare wear and feel.
07-16-2015, 11:54 AM
). When I say they work fine, I mean they work fine 99% of the time. When the brake starts to work truly hard though, the low thermal diffusivity of the CC disc means a lot of the heat stays at the interface with the pad, and the pads can wear away rapidly. That's when things can turn ugly. Iron backing plates being squeezed against CC discs gets expensive in a real hurry!
