PCCB vs Steel - Apologies
07-04-2015, 11:27 PM
#76
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
There's nothing about the GT3 that screams rational.
07-05-2015, 01:41 AM
#77
Race Director
It's a great question and as we 991 PCCB track guys are still just working out the kinks that remains to be seen. After around 10 track days my pads and rotors are still well within limits no changes needed. The question is when will they go and how bad will the damage be? we still don't know. The weight is an issue, how big? eh don't really know. There is no doubt the new PCCBs are holding up much better than previous generations yet we still have few options for switching rotors or even just pads. Steel guys still have a lot of options. Having tried the steels and PCCBs and steels on the 991 Cup I have to say I really liked the feel on the cup brakes and would love to have a similar setup for my GT3 or RS when it arrives. What are the chances that I will be able to do that with the PCCBs? Virtually nil, I mean we are still waiting on the official Porsche steel switch out system initially promised right? So steels afford a lot more options for aftermarket change if needed. I also thought the steels would allow for more wheel options but with the 21s in the rear on the RS I don't see that being an option. This really is the first season with the new generation PCCBs and as of now they are working really great. But when they go will they go predictably or quick and then bam new rotors needed. We just haven't the data yet. I feel like steel offers you more options for replacement both rotors and pads. I'm not a good enough driver to worry about the 37 or whatever pounds weight savings so I am going with steels on the RS
As long as you brought up the issue of detecting wear, however, this might be a good time to share some info that we received when we attended the GT3 "thank you" event tech session at the Porsche Experience Center in Atlanta. I wasn't previously aware of this and maybe some others aren't either.
My understanding is that wear on the new PCCB rotors can't be detected by normal means. Instead, each rotor has two numbers stamped at 3 locations around the hub. The first number reflects a nominal value which the rotor should have when it is new. The second number is the value when the rotor has become worn. These numbers are specific to each individual rotor. Readings taken by a proprietary instrument at the three locations somehow measure changes in the internal composition of the rotor and the readout indicates where on the spectrum between new and worn the target rotor is. I got to play with a new PCCB rotor and the instrument at the tech session; it was pretty cool.
I only mention this because you said that your rotors are still within limits. However, if you don't have access to the special instrument you might not be able to tell this from a visual inspection or conventional measurement. If the instrument has been used, then you're good to go, and hopefully this info will be of mild interest to someone else.
07-05-2015, 09:23 AM
#79
Rennlist Member
Some pays premium over MSRP to get a car. Some others put carbon trim, stitching, ... At the end, it is just a question of $$$.
I wished my slightly used GT3 did'nt come with PCCB when I bought it in April... I like it a lot! Now, it is going to be tough to order another one without PCCB.
My 0.02
I wished my slightly used GT3 did'nt come with PCCB when I bought it in April... I like it a lot! Now, it is going to be tough to order another one without PCCB.
My 0.02
07-05-2015, 10:50 AM
#80
Nordschleife Master
PCCB's for me. Love the initial bite, no dust, looks, less weight. Not worried about resale b/c this car is a keeper and I'm not worried about the next buyer. I ordered everything on this car for me and no one else. Just my .02
07-05-2015, 12:38 PM
#82
currently have irons on my 3, but plan to go pccb when the RS comes to fruition. i don't see myself ever selling that it happens.
fwiw, had a mezger 3 and a few other 911s, none of which had ceramics. i'm ready for a go for the minimal brake dust alone. love the rotor size and yellow calipers on black wheels anyway. not really a fan of painting red calipers yellow either.
07-05-2015, 12:46 PM
#83
i feel if the point was worn rotors, pads and shaved tires equate to a similar weight reduction which cannot be felt, my first instinct is to think the progressive wear makes the feeling less noticeable.
nonetheless, thanks for pointing it out.
07-05-2015, 01:08 PM
#84
Rennlist Member
I actually prefer standard brakes with ceramic pads for just about any application. Though the ceramics look good, (especially when changing the caliper color to Silver or grey...Im not a fan of colors)
07-05-2015, 04:59 PM
#85
07-05-2015, 05:18 PM
#86
Three Wheelin'
PCCB vs Steel - Apologies
Mike - you don't know that all GT3 owners are professional drivers and can feel the difference in the unsprung weight?
It is a subject beat to death with nothing other than a seat of the pants feel (IMHO) to back it up. For me an over $9k option was not worth it for no brake dust.
It is a subject beat to death with nothing other than a seat of the pants feel (IMHO) to back it up. For me an over $9k option was not worth it for no brake dust.
Last edited by mwar99; 07-05-2015 at 08:38 PM.
07-05-2015, 06:12 PM
#87
Have steels on my 991 GT3RS and GT4 (picking both up in a few weeks in Zuffenhausen) - same on my GT3RS 4.0 - I don't track my street cars and discussions of unsprung weight generally make me smile in that regard - from a resale POV, I don't think you get the money back - but then again, do you with deviated stitching and all the other stuff that makes you smile? - get what you want and makes you happy - these are all depreciating assets (really even tho silly money is being paid these days for everything) - markets will change and .... Have PCCBs on my CGT and 918 but didn't have a choice..... Steels squeal a bit more than Ceramics and throw off a bit of brake dust but.....
07-05-2015, 07:31 PM
#88
Race Director
Mike - you don't know that all GT3 owners are professional drivers and can feel the difference in the unsprung weight?
It is a subject beat to death with nothing other than a seat of the pants feel (IMHO) to back it up. For me an over $9k option was not worth it for no break dust.
It is a subject beat to death with nothing other than a seat of the pants feel (IMHO) to back it up. For me an over $9k option was not worth it for no break dust.
But I honestly don't get the "weight doesn't matter" argument. For example, PCA classifications for autocross and time trials add penalty points for lighter weight seats, removing bumpers, removing interior trim, fitting a smaller battery, light weight windows, etc., etc. Why? Because weight and performance are related. Moreover, some of the same people who talk about the advantages of fitting lighter mufflers, lighter wheels, and doing radio and AC delete don't see any advantage in lighter brakes. I don't get it.
Losing 35-40 lbs is significant. You may or may not "feel" the difference on the street if you're not a pro but if fractions of a second are important, the difference is going to be measureable. It's more than just no brake dust, good looks, longer life under most circumstances, and owning tech taken right from the 918; less weight is better.
To say the weight saved with PCCB's, unsprung or otherwise, makes NO difference at all flies in the face of hundreds of discussions on these forums about weight versus performance. Is that difference, and the other features of ceramics WORTH $9K? Now that's a completely different question and one I wouldn't even try to answer for someone else.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 07-06-2015 at 02:52 AM. Reason: typo
07-05-2015, 08:09 PM
#89
But I honestly don't get the "weight doesn't matter" argument. For example, PCA classifications for autocross and time trials add penalty points for lighter weight seats, removing bumpers, removing interior trim, fitting a smaller battery, light weight windows, etc., etc. Why? Because weight and performance are related. Moreover, some of the same people who talk about the advantages of fitting lighter mufflers, lighter wheels, and doing radio and AC delete don't see any advantage in lighter brakes. I don't get it.
Losing 35-40 lbs is significant. You may or may not "feel" the difference on the street if you're not a pro but if fractions of a second are important, the difference is going to measureable. It's more than just no brake dust, good looks, longer life under most circumstances, and owning tech taken right from the 918; less weight is better.
To say the weight saved with PCCB's, unsprung or otherwise, makes NO difference at all flies in the face of hundreds of discussions on these forums about weight versus performance. Is that difference, and the other features of ceramics WORTH $9K? Now that's a completely different question and one I wouldn't even try to answer for someone else.
Frankly, people just give emotional responses or sports bar arguments. I run forged monoblocks on my track car, I also pay about 4x OEM prices for light weight iron rotors. I can feel the unsprung weight difference and I'm not a pro. Reduced unsprung weight also reduces wear and tear on suspension and other components - not to mention the inertia the suspension is trying to deal with gets multiplied by the unsprung weight difference. Inertia breaks things, less inertia is always better...
07-05-2015, 08:09 PM
#90
I think the real significance of this discussion is in regards to wear and longevity with heavy track use. Yes given unlimited funds a set of PCCBs would obviously be better. However the limited use of aftermarket supplies for the PCCBs makes for an interesting argument for the steels. The real question should be if Porsche has determined that PDK is the only option for the GT3 (due to its superiority) then why haven't they gone the same route with the PCCBs? Ferrari has....yet everyone here has the option to equip steels and a signif amount of buyers continue to option the steel brakes. I don't believe this has much to do with the initial cost but more to do with the track application as this car is heavily tracked in comparison to the Fiats. With that in mind, the current generation is still much in the testing phase as it relates to longevity and ease of use with heavy track abuse. Steels however, provide a more proven commodity with more predicable results. Had I not driven the 991 Cup with PFC steels I prob would have gone with PCCB again for the RS yet here I sit with a V215 locked config with standard iron clampers. I suppose this will all be sussed out over the next few years with all of us very satisfied with our allotted choice.