991RS Review thread
05-29-2015, 06:06 PM
#241
Wow, seeing that UV against the backdrop of the lush green trees of germany has really got me thinking about switching my color...just wow this will be the color for the RS. Lava Orange may be whats on the poster but everyone will be chasing the Ultraviolet
05-29-2015, 08:22 PM
#242
Rennlist Member
The EVO article is promising indeed.
The reference to "Silk Cut" was a UK one (famous brand of cigarettes form the 90s/2000s).
There are a couple of observations Ive made from watching the last dozen or so reviews:
1). I think the 20mm smaller RS steering wheel will be a popular upgrade for 991 GT3 owners! The slightly smaller size may help longer legged drivers initiate LFB more successfully (an issue I have). The shorter throw paddle is down to the switch mechanism on the wheel by the sounds of things (i.e. AP on record saying the shift times were unchanged between models). It is interesting however that EVO draw reference to the fact perhaps the paddles are now too direct at the expense of "emotion". I would need to try it to comment myself but feel this may be "knit picking" a little. They are there for a job and they do it more precisely now...
2). The removal of rubber in the suspension may go some way to improving steering feel on the road. AP is not on record saying they have re calibrated the steering so one assumes that the ball jointed arms, the larger tyre patch etc may be the clue here? I can see Elephant Racing and others doing some business on bearing cartridges for 991 GT3 owners!
3). In every video Ive watched Ive yet to see the tacho read to the 8800 rpm "redline" (that I can recall). Unusual for Porsche there seems to be staggered red increments between 8600-8800 (where the solid red hard limit starts) which is perplexing. Even in Jorgs video the tacho seems not to exceed 8500/8600 rpm. Im wondering now if you need to be in a particular setting to get the extra 200rpm?. I note that both Walter Rohl and Jorg drive the car on the track in Sport Auto but override the system with paddles occasionally. I wonder if you need to be in manual to activate the 8800 rpm hard limit? Interesting choice of strategy for the track too so I think more of us may try Sport Auto with manual override in the future.
For the most part the commentaries seem to echo the 991 GT3 reviews from 2013 with a few exceptions.
Firstly its obviously more stable and quicker on track (as al RS should be compared to their generational GT3 brethren)!
Secondly there seems to be a solid chorus that the car is better behaved on the road than before (not surprising compared to the 997 chassis). Its not clear how much different it is on the road from the standard GT3 but the inference is its even more compliant (this may be in part due to the higher sidewall tyres). The torque bump is clearly a useful upgrade and more noticeable on the road and the track than the GT3 which had no real gain in torque over a Carrera S disappointingly. I guess this is where capacity comes in.
Lastly, Ive been a little surprised (although perhaps I shouldn't be as "time heals all wounds"), that the sheer capability of the car on the road, the technology enabling it (RWS, PDK etc) hasn't been more criticised as it was for the 991 GT3 by some. The only references Ive seen made to the lack of a manual gearbox have been from CH & Evo (whom we predicted would draw this inference ). The only real negative comment on the car (hardly a negative IMO) has been width of the track for placement on the road - but the car is hardly wide compared to a Speciale, Gallado or any other manner of exotica even the decade old F360!). Talk of the car being "too fast for the road" has been subdued - even though clearly the car is quicker on the road than its predecessor! A very curious development. I think we have to assume that the 24 months between initial road tests of the 991 GT3 and the 991 GT3RS has tempered some journalists opinions of the direction Porsche must take with the GT3/RS platform especially in light of competition.
Based on reading perhaps a dozen reviews and watching a similar number of videos on road and track in Germany my current view is this:
The 991 GT3RS has lifted the game over the 991 GT3 on road and track by a margin of 10-15%. There should be no surprise. The surprise is that its still very compliant on the road, possibly even more so than the GT3 (we need a comparison review to better understand). They have improved steering feel yet again through a combination of wheel, suspension and tyres which is a positive. The exotic tech used is without argue impressive. Journalists reviews have indicated that whilst the car is quicker on track it too seems a little trickier to get the fastest smooth lap - I think here there will be some learning for the track junkies about handling under aero downforce - but that is not a bad thing as it presents a further challenge for the hardcore track enthusiast. On the road there is not doubt the car has presence and like its predecessor is far more complaint and "every day useable" than GT models of the past.
I only have two negative opinions on the car myself:
Firstly and subjectively, with the 997.2 GT3RS I felt that was a better looking car from every angle than the base model (leery graphics aside). With the 991 GT3RS I feel the design language is stilted. Im not a fan of the flat rear fenders from the turbo nor the vents which ape the turbo design signature. Im also not a fan of the 22mm higher stance and the increased rake although I understand fully why these exist. The "bubble roof" does nothing for me nor do the creases on the hood - although they may yield 0.003 cd in the tunnel they hark back to a previous lineage (993 and earlier) that I dont believe Porsche needed to trade upon and which again convolutes the design language here. The thicker front spoiler (must be 20+mm thick) is another small detail point to reference and the way they have tied the GT3 front apron into the new wider front fenders by simply making a wider black "canard" and a thicker indicator unit seems a bit lazy to me if Im splitting hairs. I wont comment on the size of the rear wing, wings come with the territory and this one is the daddy of wings - but its functional and it does a job! The change of centre hub detailing around the CL mechanism on the RS wheels is a detail I think they could have managed better as well as the rear bumper which has a second "pocket" created by an additional crease that doesn't seem well resolved. The rear louvre behind the wing is a "jury out" element for me - I think they should have made that body coloured and left out the "Porsche" stamping which simply wasn't necessary and add further "noise" to the design itself. The 991 GT3 to me is a much better looking car in side profile, rear three quarter and front three quarter looking a better resolved design language, more fluid, more "coke bottle hips", lower with less air under the arches and simply more fluid aesthetic. I know that the hardcore track junkie buyers of the car will not care about the above comments and rightly so too. Its faster and more planted at the limit and that's what counts on the track!
Secondly and finally, my only other "disappointment" is not so much subjective but more an engineering one. Im disappointed the car does not rev to 9000 rpm. I know it makes no difference in performance between 8600-9000 rpm as peak bhp has been reached by both cars at 8250 rpm. However for me when driving the GT3 at or close to its/my limit on the road that last 500 rpm is emotional. I also sense form the videos that the RS lacks that final mechanical/engine "howl" in those last 500 rpm at least from the cockpit although that may be a function of intake road drowning out some of the higher frequencies. The thing that disappoints is that I know for 100% fact this car was fresh sheet designed to hit 9000 rpm. Obviously PAG have decided to err on the side of caution with the valve train this time around. What is certain given the power per litre figure and the peak rpm power level has not changed between models is that they are keeping something up there sleeve for later on. Perhaops thats a good thing but emotionally the 9000 rpm is important to me, not that it would prevent me from buying the car, its merely an observation form someone who has spent 18 months and 8000 miles with the 991 GT3 in all manner of driving scenarios on road and track.
Although this post is far longer than I intended it would not be complete without a final synopsis. Money aside, the 991 GT3RS is clearly in my eyes the best and most accomplished GT product Porsche has made to date. For the track junkie I believe it will provide an exhilarating ownership proposition. That it has become more exotic and more costly along the way is par for the course today. There is no doubt in my mind that the package offers a little more in every way than the base model, right down to the CF trim in the cabin as standard (jealous!). Its definately a win for PAG and customers, even if it took a little longer to arrive than anticipated. I actually feel its late gestation has been beneficial to its reception, the world has moved on a little and infact if nothing more it lends a little more credence to the underpinnings of the base GT3 which were criticised for their step function leap back in 2013. Its good for everyone this car, those that own the GT3 and those who will own the RS!
The reference to "Silk Cut" was a UK one (famous brand of cigarettes form the 90s/2000s).
There are a couple of observations Ive made from watching the last dozen or so reviews:
1). I think the 20mm smaller RS steering wheel will be a popular upgrade for 991 GT3 owners! The slightly smaller size may help longer legged drivers initiate LFB more successfully (an issue I have). The shorter throw paddle is down to the switch mechanism on the wheel by the sounds of things (i.e. AP on record saying the shift times were unchanged between models). It is interesting however that EVO draw reference to the fact perhaps the paddles are now too direct at the expense of "emotion". I would need to try it to comment myself but feel this may be "knit picking" a little. They are there for a job and they do it more precisely now...
2). The removal of rubber in the suspension may go some way to improving steering feel on the road. AP is not on record saying they have re calibrated the steering so one assumes that the ball jointed arms, the larger tyre patch etc may be the clue here? I can see Elephant Racing and others doing some business on bearing cartridges for 991 GT3 owners!
3). In every video Ive watched Ive yet to see the tacho read to the 8800 rpm "redline" (that I can recall). Unusual for Porsche there seems to be staggered red increments between 8600-8800 (where the solid red hard limit starts) which is perplexing. Even in Jorgs video the tacho seems not to exceed 8500/8600 rpm. Im wondering now if you need to be in a particular setting to get the extra 200rpm?. I note that both Walter Rohl and Jorg drive the car on the track in Sport Auto but override the system with paddles occasionally. I wonder if you need to be in manual to activate the 8800 rpm hard limit? Interesting choice of strategy for the track too so I think more of us may try Sport Auto with manual override in the future.
For the most part the commentaries seem to echo the 991 GT3 reviews from 2013 with a few exceptions.
Firstly its obviously more stable and quicker on track (as al RS should be compared to their generational GT3 brethren)!
Secondly there seems to be a solid chorus that the car is better behaved on the road than before (not surprising compared to the 997 chassis). Its not clear how much different it is on the road from the standard GT3 but the inference is its even more compliant (this may be in part due to the higher sidewall tyres). The torque bump is clearly a useful upgrade and more noticeable on the road and the track than the GT3 which had no real gain in torque over a Carrera S disappointingly. I guess this is where capacity comes in.
Lastly, Ive been a little surprised (although perhaps I shouldn't be as "time heals all wounds"), that the sheer capability of the car on the road, the technology enabling it (RWS, PDK etc) hasn't been more criticised as it was for the 991 GT3 by some. The only references Ive seen made to the lack of a manual gearbox have been from CH & Evo (whom we predicted would draw this inference ). The only real negative comment on the car (hardly a negative IMO) has been width of the track for placement on the road - but the car is hardly wide compared to a Speciale, Gallado or any other manner of exotica even the decade old F360!). Talk of the car being "too fast for the road" has been subdued - even though clearly the car is quicker on the road than its predecessor! A very curious development. I think we have to assume that the 24 months between initial road tests of the 991 GT3 and the 991 GT3RS has tempered some journalists opinions of the direction Porsche must take with the GT3/RS platform especially in light of competition.
Based on reading perhaps a dozen reviews and watching a similar number of videos on road and track in Germany my current view is this:
The 991 GT3RS has lifted the game over the 991 GT3 on road and track by a margin of 10-15%. There should be no surprise. The surprise is that its still very compliant on the road, possibly even more so than the GT3 (we need a comparison review to better understand). They have improved steering feel yet again through a combination of wheel, suspension and tyres which is a positive. The exotic tech used is without argue impressive. Journalists reviews have indicated that whilst the car is quicker on track it too seems a little trickier to get the fastest smooth lap - I think here there will be some learning for the track junkies about handling under aero downforce - but that is not a bad thing as it presents a further challenge for the hardcore track enthusiast. On the road there is not doubt the car has presence and like its predecessor is far more complaint and "every day useable" than GT models of the past.
I only have two negative opinions on the car myself:
Firstly and subjectively, with the 997.2 GT3RS I felt that was a better looking car from every angle than the base model (leery graphics aside). With the 991 GT3RS I feel the design language is stilted. Im not a fan of the flat rear fenders from the turbo nor the vents which ape the turbo design signature. Im also not a fan of the 22mm higher stance and the increased rake although I understand fully why these exist. The "bubble roof" does nothing for me nor do the creases on the hood - although they may yield 0.003 cd in the tunnel they hark back to a previous lineage (993 and earlier) that I dont believe Porsche needed to trade upon and which again convolutes the design language here. The thicker front spoiler (must be 20+mm thick) is another small detail point to reference and the way they have tied the GT3 front apron into the new wider front fenders by simply making a wider black "canard" and a thicker indicator unit seems a bit lazy to me if Im splitting hairs. I wont comment on the size of the rear wing, wings come with the territory and this one is the daddy of wings - but its functional and it does a job! The change of centre hub detailing around the CL mechanism on the RS wheels is a detail I think they could have managed better as well as the rear bumper which has a second "pocket" created by an additional crease that doesn't seem well resolved. The rear louvre behind the wing is a "jury out" element for me - I think they should have made that body coloured and left out the "Porsche" stamping which simply wasn't necessary and add further "noise" to the design itself. The 991 GT3 to me is a much better looking car in side profile, rear three quarter and front three quarter looking a better resolved design language, more fluid, more "coke bottle hips", lower with less air under the arches and simply more fluid aesthetic. I know that the hardcore track junkie buyers of the car will not care about the above comments and rightly so too. Its faster and more planted at the limit and that's what counts on the track!
Secondly and finally, my only other "disappointment" is not so much subjective but more an engineering one. Im disappointed the car does not rev to 9000 rpm. I know it makes no difference in performance between 8600-9000 rpm as peak bhp has been reached by both cars at 8250 rpm. However for me when driving the GT3 at or close to its/my limit on the road that last 500 rpm is emotional. I also sense form the videos that the RS lacks that final mechanical/engine "howl" in those last 500 rpm at least from the cockpit although that may be a function of intake road drowning out some of the higher frequencies. The thing that disappoints is that I know for 100% fact this car was fresh sheet designed to hit 9000 rpm. Obviously PAG have decided to err on the side of caution with the valve train this time around. What is certain given the power per litre figure and the peak rpm power level has not changed between models is that they are keeping something up there sleeve for later on. Perhaops thats a good thing but emotionally the 9000 rpm is important to me, not that it would prevent me from buying the car, its merely an observation form someone who has spent 18 months and 8000 miles with the 991 GT3 in all manner of driving scenarios on road and track.
Although this post is far longer than I intended it would not be complete without a final synopsis. Money aside, the 991 GT3RS is clearly in my eyes the best and most accomplished GT product Porsche has made to date. For the track junkie I believe it will provide an exhilarating ownership proposition. That it has become more exotic and more costly along the way is par for the course today. There is no doubt in my mind that the package offers a little more in every way than the base model, right down to the CF trim in the cabin as standard (jealous!). Its definately a win for PAG and customers, even if it took a little longer to arrive than anticipated. I actually feel its late gestation has been beneficial to its reception, the world has moved on a little and infact if nothing more it lends a little more credence to the underpinnings of the base GT3 which were criticised for their step function leap back in 2013. Its good for everyone this car, those that own the GT3 and those who will own the RS!
05-29-2015, 08:51 PM
#243
The EVO article is promising indeed.
The reference to "Silk Cut" was a UK one (famous brand of cigarettes form the 90s/2000s).
There are a couple of observations Ive made from watching the last dozen or so reviews:
1). I think the 20mm smaller RS steering wheel will be a popular upgrade for 991 GT3 owners! The slightly smaller size may help longer legged drivers initiate LFB more successfully (an issue I have). The shorter throw paddle is down to the switch mechanism on the wheel by the sounds of things (i.e. AP on record saying the shift times were unchanged between models). It is interesting however that EVO draw reference to the fact perhaps the paddles are now too direct at the expense of "emotion". I would need to try it to comment myself but feel this may be "knit picking" a little. They are there for a job and they do it more precisely now...
2). The removal of rubber in the suspension may go some way to improving steering feel on the road. AP is not on record saying they have re calibrated the steering so one assumes that the ball jointed arms, the larger tyre patch etc may be the clue here? I can see Elephant Racing and others doing some business on bearing cartridges for 991 GT3 owners!
3). In every video Ive watched Ive yet to see the tacho read to the 8800 rpm "redline" (that I can recall). Unusual for Porsche there seems to be staggered red increments between 8600-8800 (where the solid red hard limit starts) which is perplexing. Even in Jorgs video the tacho seems not to exceed 8500/8600 rpm. Im wondering now if you need to be in a particular setting to get the extra 200rpm?. I note that both Walter Rohl and Jorg drive the car on the track in Sport Auto but override the system with paddles occasionally. I wonder if you need to be in manual to activate the 8800 rpm hard limit? Interesting choice of strategy for the track too so I think more of us may try Sport Auto with manual override in the future.
For the most part the commentaries seem to echo the 991 GT3 reviews from 2013 with a few exceptions.
Firstly its obviously more stable and quicker on track (as al RS should be compared to their generational GT3 brethren)!
Secondly there seems to be a solid chorus that the car is better behaved on the road than before (not surprising compared to the 997 chassis). Its not clear how much different it is on the road from the standard GT3 but the inference is its even more compliant (this may be in part due to the higher sidewall tyres). The torque bump is clearly a useful upgrade and more noticeable on the road and the track than the GT3 which had no real gain in torque over a Carrera S disappointingly. I guess this is where capacity comes in.
Lastly, Ive been a little surprised (although perhaps I shouldn't be as "time heals all wounds"), that the sheer capability of the car on the road, the technology enabling it (RWS, PDK etc) hasn't been more criticised as it was for the 991 GT3 by some. The only references Ive seen made to the lack of a manual gearbox have been from CH & Evo (whom we predicted would draw this inference ). The only real negative comment on the car (hardly a negative IMO) has been width of the track for placement on the road - but the car is hardly wide compared to a Speciale, Gallado or any other manner of exotica even the decade old F360!). Talk of the car being "too fast for the road" has been subdued - even though clearly the car is quicker on the road than its predecessor! A very curious development. I think we have to assume that the 24 months between initial road tests of the 991 GT3 and the 991 GT3RS has tempered some journalists opinions of the direction Porsche must take with the GT3/RS platform especially in light of competition.
Based on reading perhaps a dozen reviews and watching a similar number of videos on road and track in Germany my current view is this:
The 991 GT3RS has lifted the game over the 991 GT3 on road and track by a margin of 10-15%. There should be no surprise. The surprise is that its still very compliant on the road, possibly even more so than the GT3 (we need a comparison review to better understand). They have improved steering feel yet again through a combination of wheel, suspension and tyres which is a positive. The exotic tech used is without argue impressive. Journalists reviews have indicated that whilst the car is quicker on track it too seems a little trickier to get the fastest smooth lap - I think here there will be some learning for the track junkies about handling under aero downforce - but that is not a bad thing as it presents a further challenge for the hardcore track enthusiast. On the road there is not doubt the car has presence and like its predecessor is far more complaint and "every day useable" than GT models of the past.
I only have two negative opinions on the car myself:
Firstly and subjectively, with the 997.2 GT3RS I felt that was a better looking car from every angle than the base model (leery graphics aside). With the 991 GT3RS I feel the design language is stilted. Im not a fan of the flat rear fenders from the turbo nor the vents which ape the turbo design signature. Im also not a fan of the 22mm higher stance and the increased rake although I understand fully why these exist. The "bubble roof" does nothing for me nor do the creases on the hood - although they may yield 0.003 cd in the tunnel they hark back to a previous lineage (993 and earlier) that I dont believe Porsche needed to trade upon and which again convolutes the design language here. The thicker front spoiler (must be 20+mm thick) is another small detail point to reference and the way they have tied the GT3 front apron into the new wider front fenders by simply making a wider black "canard" and a thicker indicator unit seems a bit lazy to me if Im splitting hairs. I wont comment on the size of the rear wing, wings come with the territory and this one is the daddy of wings - but its functional and it does a job! The change of centre hub detailing around the CL mechanism on the RS wheels is a detail I think they could have managed better as well as the rear bumper which has a second "pocket" created by an additional crease that doesn't seem well resolved. The rear louvre behind the wing is a "jury out" element for me - I think they should have made that body coloured and left out the "Porsche" stamping which simply wasn't necessary and add further "noise" to the design itself. The 991 GT3 to me is a much better looking car in side profile, rear three quarter and front three quarter looking a better resolved design language, more fluid, more "coke bottle hips", lower with less air under the arches and simply more fluid aesthetic. I know that the hardcore track junkie buyers of the car will not care about the above comments and rightly so too. Its faster and more planted at the limit and that's what counts on the track!
Secondly and finally, my only other "disappointment" is not so much subjective but more an engineering one. Im disappointed the car does not rev to 9000 rpm. I know it makes no difference in performance between 8600-9000 rpm as peak bhp has been reached by both cars at 8250 rpm. However for me when driving the GT3 at or close to its/my limit on the road that last 500 rpm is emotional. I also sense form the videos that the RS lacks that final mechanical/engine "howl" in those last 500 rpm at least from the cockpit although that may be a function of intake road drowning out some of the higher frequencies. The thing that disappoints is that I know for 100% fact this car was fresh sheet designed to hit 9000 rpm. Obviously PAG have decided to err on the side of caution with the valve train this time around. What is certain given the power per litre figure and the peak rpm power level has not changed between models is that they are keeping something up there sleeve for later on. Perhaops thats a good thing but emotionally the 9000 rpm is important to me, not that it would prevent me from buying the car, its merely an observation form someone who has spent 18 months and 8000 miles with the 991 GT3 in all manner of driving scenarios on road and track.
Although this post is far longer than I intended it would not be complete without a final synopsis. Money aside, the 991 GT3RS is clearly in my eyes the best and most accomplished GT product Porsche has made to date. For the track junkie I believe it will provide an exhilarating ownership proposition. That it has become more exotic and more costly along the way is par for the course today. There is no doubt in my mind that the package offers a little more in every way than the base model, right down to the CF trim in the cabin as standard (jealous!). Its definately a win for PAG and customers, even if it took a little longer to arrive than anticipated. I actually feel its late gestation has been beneficial to its reception, the world has moved on a little and infact if nothing more it lends a little more credence to the underpinnings of the base GT3 which were criticised for their step function leap back in 2013. Its good for everyone this car, those that own the GT3 and those who will own the RS!
The reference to "Silk Cut" was a UK one (famous brand of cigarettes form the 90s/2000s).
There are a couple of observations Ive made from watching the last dozen or so reviews:
1). I think the 20mm smaller RS steering wheel will be a popular upgrade for 991 GT3 owners! The slightly smaller size may help longer legged drivers initiate LFB more successfully (an issue I have). The shorter throw paddle is down to the switch mechanism on the wheel by the sounds of things (i.e. AP on record saying the shift times were unchanged between models). It is interesting however that EVO draw reference to the fact perhaps the paddles are now too direct at the expense of "emotion". I would need to try it to comment myself but feel this may be "knit picking" a little. They are there for a job and they do it more precisely now...
2). The removal of rubber in the suspension may go some way to improving steering feel on the road. AP is not on record saying they have re calibrated the steering so one assumes that the ball jointed arms, the larger tyre patch etc may be the clue here? I can see Elephant Racing and others doing some business on bearing cartridges for 991 GT3 owners!
3). In every video Ive watched Ive yet to see the tacho read to the 8800 rpm "redline" (that I can recall). Unusual for Porsche there seems to be staggered red increments between 8600-8800 (where the solid red hard limit starts) which is perplexing. Even in Jorgs video the tacho seems not to exceed 8500/8600 rpm. Im wondering now if you need to be in a particular setting to get the extra 200rpm?. I note that both Walter Rohl and Jorg drive the car on the track in Sport Auto but override the system with paddles occasionally. I wonder if you need to be in manual to activate the 8800 rpm hard limit? Interesting choice of strategy for the track too so I think more of us may try Sport Auto with manual override in the future.
For the most part the commentaries seem to echo the 991 GT3 reviews from 2013 with a few exceptions.
Firstly its obviously more stable and quicker on track (as al RS should be compared to their generational GT3 brethren)!
Secondly there seems to be a solid chorus that the car is better behaved on the road than before (not surprising compared to the 997 chassis). Its not clear how much different it is on the road from the standard GT3 but the inference is its even more compliant (this may be in part due to the higher sidewall tyres). The torque bump is clearly a useful upgrade and more noticeable on the road and the track than the GT3 which had no real gain in torque over a Carrera S disappointingly. I guess this is where capacity comes in.
Lastly, Ive been a little surprised (although perhaps I shouldn't be as "time heals all wounds"), that the sheer capability of the car on the road, the technology enabling it (RWS, PDK etc) hasn't been more criticised as it was for the 991 GT3 by some. The only references Ive seen made to the lack of a manual gearbox have been from CH & Evo (whom we predicted would draw this inference ). The only real negative comment on the car (hardly a negative IMO) has been width of the track for placement on the road - but the car is hardly wide compared to a Speciale, Gallado or any other manner of exotica even the decade old F360!). Talk of the car being "too fast for the road" has been subdued - even though clearly the car is quicker on the road than its predecessor! A very curious development. I think we have to assume that the 24 months between initial road tests of the 991 GT3 and the 991 GT3RS has tempered some journalists opinions of the direction Porsche must take with the GT3/RS platform especially in light of competition.
Based on reading perhaps a dozen reviews and watching a similar number of videos on road and track in Germany my current view is this:
The 991 GT3RS has lifted the game over the 991 GT3 on road and track by a margin of 10-15%. There should be no surprise. The surprise is that its still very compliant on the road, possibly even more so than the GT3 (we need a comparison review to better understand). They have improved steering feel yet again through a combination of wheel, suspension and tyres which is a positive. The exotic tech used is without argue impressive. Journalists reviews have indicated that whilst the car is quicker on track it too seems a little trickier to get the fastest smooth lap - I think here there will be some learning for the track junkies about handling under aero downforce - but that is not a bad thing as it presents a further challenge for the hardcore track enthusiast. On the road there is not doubt the car has presence and like its predecessor is far more complaint and "every day useable" than GT models of the past.
I only have two negative opinions on the car myself:
Firstly and subjectively, with the 997.2 GT3RS I felt that was a better looking car from every angle than the base model (leery graphics aside). With the 991 GT3RS I feel the design language is stilted. Im not a fan of the flat rear fenders from the turbo nor the vents which ape the turbo design signature. Im also not a fan of the 22mm higher stance and the increased rake although I understand fully why these exist. The "bubble roof" does nothing for me nor do the creases on the hood - although they may yield 0.003 cd in the tunnel they hark back to a previous lineage (993 and earlier) that I dont believe Porsche needed to trade upon and which again convolutes the design language here. The thicker front spoiler (must be 20+mm thick) is another small detail point to reference and the way they have tied the GT3 front apron into the new wider front fenders by simply making a wider black "canard" and a thicker indicator unit seems a bit lazy to me if Im splitting hairs. I wont comment on the size of the rear wing, wings come with the territory and this one is the daddy of wings - but its functional and it does a job! The change of centre hub detailing around the CL mechanism on the RS wheels is a detail I think they could have managed better as well as the rear bumper which has a second "pocket" created by an additional crease that doesn't seem well resolved. The rear louvre behind the wing is a "jury out" element for me - I think they should have made that body coloured and left out the "Porsche" stamping which simply wasn't necessary and add further "noise" to the design itself. The 991 GT3 to me is a much better looking car in side profile, rear three quarter and front three quarter looking a better resolved design language, more fluid, more "coke bottle hips", lower with less air under the arches and simply more fluid aesthetic. I know that the hardcore track junkie buyers of the car will not care about the above comments and rightly so too. Its faster and more planted at the limit and that's what counts on the track!
Secondly and finally, my only other "disappointment" is not so much subjective but more an engineering one. Im disappointed the car does not rev to 9000 rpm. I know it makes no difference in performance between 8600-9000 rpm as peak bhp has been reached by both cars at 8250 rpm. However for me when driving the GT3 at or close to its/my limit on the road that last 500 rpm is emotional. I also sense form the videos that the RS lacks that final mechanical/engine "howl" in those last 500 rpm at least from the cockpit although that may be a function of intake road drowning out some of the higher frequencies. The thing that disappoints is that I know for 100% fact this car was fresh sheet designed to hit 9000 rpm. Obviously PAG have decided to err on the side of caution with the valve train this time around. What is certain given the power per litre figure and the peak rpm power level has not changed between models is that they are keeping something up there sleeve for later on. Perhaops thats a good thing but emotionally the 9000 rpm is important to me, not that it would prevent me from buying the car, its merely an observation form someone who has spent 18 months and 8000 miles with the 991 GT3 in all manner of driving scenarios on road and track.
Although this post is far longer than I intended it would not be complete without a final synopsis. Money aside, the 991 GT3RS is clearly in my eyes the best and most accomplished GT product Porsche has made to date. For the track junkie I believe it will provide an exhilarating ownership proposition. That it has become more exotic and more costly along the way is par for the course today. There is no doubt in my mind that the package offers a little more in every way than the base model, right down to the CF trim in the cabin as standard (jealous!). Its definately a win for PAG and customers, even if it took a little longer to arrive than anticipated. I actually feel its late gestation has been beneficial to its reception, the world has moved on a little and infact if nothing more it lends a little more credence to the underpinnings of the base GT3 which were criticised for their step function leap back in 2013. Its good for everyone this car, those that own the GT3 and those who will own the RS!
I agree that the 991gt3 looks a lot better than the RS. And that's the first time I felt that way.
The only thing I don't agree with you on is the 9000rev limit! If the 991rs is similar to the difference between 997rs.2 and 4.0? I won't miss those last 200rpm. The low end tourque and throttle response will be so much better and to me this makes the car more fun to drive on the road. Will obviously be handy on track as well but more important on a street legal car like the RS.
05-29-2015, 09:11 PM
#244
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Much better angle on this video for Jorge's lap. Guy is quick, quick. Loved the floating drift over the drop onto the straight and the way he waited for traction to come back in the compression.
Don't expect the aspect of learning the new aero will be as a big a deal as some are making out. This is not "light-switch" levels of aero we're talking about; still less than a Cup. The biggest aspect of aero gain in a Cup is learning how much more force you can apply to the brakes from high speed without locking and the need to modulate pressure as speed slows and downforce diminishes. ABS negates this issue in the street car.
Biggest issue is most of us won't ever have the seat time, skill, or commitment required to ever see the car's potential. But it's fun to know it's there.
Looking forward to the sub-3,000lb, gutted interior, 5-lug, manual-option Cup Edition. And very curious to see where the 991.2 GT3 redlines
Don't expect the aspect of learning the new aero will be as a big a deal as some are making out. This is not "light-switch" levels of aero we're talking about; still less than a Cup. The biggest aspect of aero gain in a Cup is learning how much more force you can apply to the brakes from high speed without locking and the need to modulate pressure as speed slows and downforce diminishes. ABS negates this issue in the street car.
Biggest issue is most of us won't ever have the seat time, skill, or commitment required to ever see the car's potential. But it's fun to know it's there.
Looking forward to the sub-3,000lb, gutted interior, 5-lug, manual-option Cup Edition. And very curious to see where the 991.2 GT3 redlines
05-29-2015, 09:11 PM
#245
Rennlist Member
997rs4.0
No one person is right here, these are just my views. However as someone who has lived with the 991 GT3 and its 9000 rpm rev limit since 05 December 2013 I cannot entirely agree with you.
I agree that you will not miss the last 200-400 rpm (is it really only 200 rpm you are missing? - I cant see that in any of the videos I have watched and I question the "dotted" red lines form 8500 - but Im sure PAG are not lying to us here). Indeed it is hard to miss something you never had. As I say its the speed, sound etc from that last 4-500 rpm which when I watch my in car track videos and drive my car stay with me long after the car is put back into storage. On the road I use the 9000 rpm only in second gear (we have a country full of tight windy back roads) and occasionally third gear (less often) so probably for some may not be relevant. In Europe I enjoyed teh 9000 rpm shifts in 3rd and 4th gear much more often!
Its just an observation thats all. The 9000 rpm thing is a headline I know, but if youve driven the car regularly to the limit its part of the evocative appeal. I dont think anyone picking up a new RS will probably notice, especially if they have never woned the GT3 and it obviously doesnt have a bearing on the performance....but perhaps knowing that the car was designed for 9000 rpm and nuetered after the GT3 engine fiasco is part of the reason for my disappointment. Just a personal view.
these videos are old and the mic is on the Sony HDR As100 camera used so the resolution at 9000 rpm isnt brilliant, but it may give you a feel for it.
No one person is right here, these are just my views. However as someone who has lived with the 991 GT3 and its 9000 rpm rev limit since 05 December 2013 I cannot entirely agree with you.
I agree that you will not miss the last 200-400 rpm (is it really only 200 rpm you are missing? - I cant see that in any of the videos I have watched and I question the "dotted" red lines form 8500 - but Im sure PAG are not lying to us here). Indeed it is hard to miss something you never had. As I say its the speed, sound etc from that last 4-500 rpm which when I watch my in car track videos and drive my car stay with me long after the car is put back into storage. On the road I use the 9000 rpm only in second gear (we have a country full of tight windy back roads) and occasionally third gear (less often) so probably for some may not be relevant. In Europe I enjoyed teh 9000 rpm shifts in 3rd and 4th gear much more often!
Its just an observation thats all. The 9000 rpm thing is a headline I know, but if youve driven the car regularly to the limit its part of the evocative appeal. I dont think anyone picking up a new RS will probably notice, especially if they have never woned the GT3 and it obviously doesnt have a bearing on the performance....but perhaps knowing that the car was designed for 9000 rpm and nuetered after the GT3 engine fiasco is part of the reason for my disappointment. Just a personal view.
these videos are old and the mic is on the Sony HDR As100 camera used so the resolution at 9000 rpm isnt brilliant, but it may give you a feel for it.
05-29-2015, 09:42 PM
#246
Rennlist Member
Great summary!
I agree that the 991gt3 looks a lot better than the RS. And that's the first time I felt that way.
The only thing I don't agree with you on is the 9000rev limit! If the 991rs is similar to the difference between 997rs.2 and 4.0? I won't miss those last 200rpm. The low end tourque and throttle response will be so much better and to me this makes the car more fun to drive on the road. Will obviously be handy on track as well but more important on a street legal car like the RS.
I agree that the 991gt3 looks a lot better than the RS. And that's the first time I felt that way.
The only thing I don't agree with you on is the 9000rev limit! If the 991rs is similar to the difference between 997rs.2 and 4.0? I won't miss those last 200rpm. The low end tourque and throttle response will be so much better and to me this makes the car more fun to drive on the road. Will obviously be handy on track as well but more important on a street legal car like the RS.
However (and subjectively) the two cars seem to rev and change gear very similar to each other - I notice no difference in speed myself. I believe the transmission and flywheel are essentially identical although Im happy to be corrected here.
Nizer. You have the benefit of time in a Cup car which many do not. PAG say the car delivers 80% of the downforce of a Cup which is a fair step up form the cooking GT3. I drove an aero car only once with pace and found that there were plenty of peculiarities to get accustomed too such as you have noted. Im not saying that its hard to learn this, infact to the contrary Im pointing to this as a new challenge to make the RS more exciting on the track for those who aim to squeeze all the performance from the RS. However, if the Journalists driving during the period at BB is anything to go by there is definitely a few things to adjust in terms of driving style at the limit if the scenery isnt to become one with the car. But thats all good because its supposed to be a bit more hairy to get the best from - isnt/wasnt that the whole point of the GT cars? The aero didnt come into my review as I see it as a positive to the formula on the track - especially for the initiated. Perhaps its was because the track has such elevation changes that it caught a few journalists un-aware. Our local track (2 of the videos above) has alot of elevation as you can see, you learn to load the chassis up quite differently on these sorts of tracks (something I have not yet become proficient at to my satisfaction in the GT3 - something Im much more comfortable with in my 993 track car as with the GT3 I find myself guessing the limits of front adhesion whereas with the older chassis its telling me everything through its now ball jointed coilover suspension!).
All of this is worthy debate. None of it will be known by us for some time.
My decision to pass on my RS allocation (yes I had one) was based on three parameters:
1). Cost. The cost to trade out and into a 991 GT3RS in my market was almost the equivalent of adding a GT4 to the stable. Ive opted for the addition!
2). Insurance. In NZ my maximum insurance cover for the track is 200,000 USD which is a fraction less than my GT3 costs to replace in the local market. The 991 GT3 would leave me 66,000 USD under insured on the track for a total loss. In the first 2 years of ownership/insurance from new here a 50%+ damage level equates to a total loss with new car replacement. Its a standard policy clause for the industry here...
3). Additional performance on the track. As you can see from our local tracks there is usually only 1 place you can go above 200 kmph (usually vmax would be on this part 235-245kmph in a GT3). Of the 9 tracks in the country I have drive 8 and do so annually. Of those 8 only 2 have a second stretch that gets just above 200 kmph. Our tracks are short (3.5-5.5 km) and have alot of elevation changes with limited run off and often concrete barriers. This is different from nay mid western and CA tracks I have seen video of. I believe the benefits of the aero are limited on the tracks I am driving. Add to that my skill level and my views are I would improve my times by only 1s a lap at these tracks - something that already left on the table by my current GT3. For the cost premium of 66,000 USD over the GT3 at MSRP in my local market I feel that money is better spent funding tuition, tires and track time. I still have 1+s to find and when I do so I have no doubt Ill be as quick (or quicker) in the GT3 as the average RS owner on the track here. Infact of our private 55 member track group (we have 4 x 991 GT3 owner and 4 x GT4 inbound) no one drives a RS of any generation on the track because they are either too expensive, insurance issue as above or the types of people that buy them in our market are not track regulars. The older RS are all in cotton wool now!
4) & Lastly are the subjective points I elude to in my "review".
I make the comments above to simply give a little more background. Unlike in other markets its not because I couldnt get an RS that I chose not to, nor is its strictly about money (although I am not as wealthy as many on here and this is a factor I have to be realistic about). I just dont want people here thinking Im criticising because Im sore I didnt get one!
My decision was made on the points above. I believe the RS is the better car, of that I have no doubt - probably 10-15% better in all parameters as Im sure was the design brief, however in my instance and with the 30%+ additional outlay the metrics are not favourable for me personally to take a RS. I use my car 30% track and 70% road...
05-29-2015, 09:52 PM
#248
Rennlist Member
Sorry Peter. I was doing some navel gazing this morning...got carried away!
here is the comparative video of the speed of the tacho 997rs4.0. I know its not conclusive, however I dont see the 991 GT3 tacho needle moving slower than the RS (infact if anything perhaps the other way). Its not scientific obviously. That being said in real life and from experience I cant believe how fast the neddle already moves in the GT3/RS. Certainly makes my old air sucker 3.6 needle seem slow (and that has Motec, lightweight pully, valve train with spiky cams and LWFC!).
here is the comparative video of the speed of the tacho 997rs4.0. I know its not conclusive, however I dont see the 991 GT3 tacho needle moving slower than the RS (infact if anything perhaps the other way). Its not scientific obviously. That being said in real life and from experience I cant believe how fast the neddle already moves in the GT3/RS. Certainly makes my old air sucker 3.6 needle seem slow (and that has Motec, lightweight pully, valve train with spiky cams and LWFC!).
