RacingBrake

Excellent, both "orthojoe" and "TRAKCAR" are highly recommend by Ron and Mike who have been testing RB brakes on their ZR1's for iron rotor replacement and brake pads.

We thank them and look forward to working with them.

Warren-RB

MaxLTV

You picked well, but if any of them for what ever reason flakes or proves to be difficult to work with I'm very interested. I'm similar to orthojoe in many ways, but have a brighter colored car, and already went through a set of rotors and two sets of pads on GT3. My other "achievements" include disintegrating two brands of brake pads in an M3, and heating up calipers on an Alcon 385mm BBK kit so that the bleed nipples popped out.

TRAKCAR

Me difficult to work with??! Forgetaboutit!!


Nobody kills brakes like I do :-)
Looking at these rotor prices and refurbishing cost I think we are finally going to find the next solution.

Very excited about this opportunity.

paver

I did the Surface Transforms(Movit, Alcon, RB, Stillen...whatever brand is stamped on them) rotor experiment last year, except unfortunately I didn't have a sponsor. It only took me 24 track days to get them to the point of needing refurb. As if that wasn't bad enough, the refurb, by the time you ship to UK and back, put new hardware on the hats, etc will cost you as much or more than a nice set of iron rotors. Add to all that only running pads to halfway point or a little further and you need big time throwaway money for these things. Movit sales rep on here claims 70 plus track days with no detectable wear. I don't see how that can be.

orthojoe

Thanks, Warren. With trakcar on the east coast and me on the west coast, I think you'll get good representation. I'm one of the biggest PCCB naysayers out there, but have always been curious about CCM since they are solid and not laminated like PCCB.

Thanks for posting your experience, paver. I think a good cost analysis based on entry price, longevity, and maintenance/refurbishment will need to be done to see if this type of setup is worthwhile to the track community.

TRAKCAR

I did not know that Lindsay and though I followed everything PCCB over the years, but no one ever really posted about them in terms of a lot of fast, hard, hot proven track days?

Looking to learn and share.

I'm glad when I tried new stuff in 2010, what an improvement compared to Pagid that we thought was normal in 2010, now I'm hoping to find the next better way.
Me thinks the new faster, heavier, automatic GT3's are going to need it..

Shipping cost does not bother me, it wouldn't even be a bother to pack and ship and we ship lots of stuff ship and CCB's are light. Steel rotors don't fly for free either.
I'm hoping for better brakes and less replacement hassle mostly with the ****ty fixed bridge calipers now front and rear. What a PITA.
I never got 24 days out of the steels, maybe 16 but often cracked one after just 8-10. Rears lasted much longer, 30 or so.

Even if they are the same cost to refurbish as new steel rotors but last longer, are lighter and feel better / cooler than its already a win?

Did you add any cooling, is that still a factor with CCB?

paver

My usage by track was:
6 days at Barber
3 days at COTA
11 days at Road Atlanta
2 days at VIR
1.5 days at NCM

Usage by pad compound was:
7 days with RSC1(comes with the rotors)
9 days with RS29(what ST recommends for track only)
7.5 days RSC3(new ceramic-specific pad from Pagid)
Total track miles was 2997
That's about $5.20/mile for the initial usage. What you don't see in that equation is the limited pad options and the changed feel vs. iron.
Endless W007 seems to be the preferred pad for cc rotors. The problem is they cost roughly twice what pagid pads do. So the 5.20/mi goes up even more with them unless they last twice as long which I doubt.
The real eye opening thing for me was the last day I used them. I began to feel judder at mid-day at NCM. That is the sign to send in for refurb. I had spare irons and pfc pads with me. I took the ST's off and 90 minutes later I was back on track with the iron/pfc setup. The first lap at speed it was like "ahhhhhh" that awesome feel I hadn't felt in almost a yr was back. Iron is just so tactile and precise maybe are the right words.

I had that cooling that Eddie sold. I think it is no help though. The air has to be ducted into a shroud that fits tight to the upright to do any good, imo. I have a PMNA duct kit that cost mega $ but I haven't put it on yet. Racing Brake and others doubt the accuracy of rotor temp paint but I used it many times and saw the 800ºC range. Even it if wasn't truly accurate that is still 150-300ºC over what this ST paper recommends: http://www.surfacetransforms.com/fil...march_2014.pdf

Clark will ship you pfc fronts for what $1600 all day long and that is with the hats. Once you get the hats I guess the discs are 1000? Turbo rears are maybe $800 shipped. And you can run the pads all way to the end.
40 lbs of unsprung weight gone is a nice thing but the $/mile is too high and the other sacrifices like pad choice and feel, lack of knowledge/factory support(in my case Alcon...ST tried to help me some) makes it not worth it to me.

orthojoe

^ thanks, paver.

werks

Hey Trackcar and Orthojoe, nice to hear that you guys are coming on board to help with testing/deveopment of the Racing Brake line. Ortho I've seen you around at T-hill and Trackcar I chatted with you for a bit when you were over here during the summer (I'm the half dutch guy with the orange corvette). Me and Mike have been working with Warren since last season with Mike mostly doing iron rotor testing and me working on CCM pad testing and development. To give you some background I have been tracking with ccm's for the last 4 years doing about 25-30 days per season on them. I've also ran just about every pad made for them (and not made for them too lol) so I've played around quite a bit with CCM technology over the years! Warren has some really interesting stuff that he's working on and I think that you guys are really going to enjoy participating in developing this stuff!

TRAKCAR

Hey werks,

Look forward to it, thanks for checking in!
The stuff looks great and it's cool that the components span different applications.

Now, if my car would just get built already....

paver

Werks, have you used Surface Transforms yet?

Clark-ApexPerformance

Clark will ship you pfc fronts for what $1600 all day long and that is with the hats. Once you get the hats I guess the discs are 1000? Turbo rears are maybe $800 shipped. And you can run the pads all way to the end.
40 lbs of unsprung weight gone is a nice thing but the $/mile is too high and the other sacrifices like pad choice and feel, lack of knowledge/factory support(in my case Alcon...ST tried to help me some) makes it not worth it to me.[/QUOTE]

For the 997,PFC replacement rotors are $450 a piece. For the AP
991 set up the replacement rotors are $399 a piece.
Happy Motoring Boys

werks

You know what they say, some things are worth waiting for and I have a feeling what you got coming is going to be well worth it! Now if you get tired of waiting and ever feel the need to sell that little bitty trailer that I got a chance to take a look at when you were down here let me know


Hey Paver, it's been a while since we last spoke and hope that you are doing well! I have not gone over to ST rotors yet. My work to date has predominately involved brake pad development and for that I've stayed on the OEM Brembo CCM rotors specifically because I have been running them so long (4 years or a litle over 10k track miles) that I'm very familiar with the feel of them with different pad compounds. I will shortly start testing Racing Brake's new light weight aluminum rear rotor hat with steel insert for parking brake (roughly 4lbs ea lighter than stock) for the ZR1 / Zo6w/Z07. Down the road I may go the ST rotor route if Warren needs help with anything on those but first I want to finish up pad development. We've gone through multiple compounds and through track testing that I have been doing I think that we are now really, really close to having that sorted out. Once that is finalized I will look into the next challenge

RacingBrake

Hi Paver,

I can understand your frustration for the short life span of the ST rotors which you told me purchased under Alcon brand.

Our first set of RB/ST rotor was debuted via "7racer's" GT-R a few month ago. Before the rotors were built, we acquired both ZR1 (Z06) and ST rotor samples, this was when I learned what sizes of rotors ST made for what applications and their thermal characteristics vs. Brembo.

We have also done an in depth system analysis on ZR1 stock set up (rotor, pad, and calipers) where we found several area of improvement can be made to the system that helped us to develop the first set of track duty iron rotor replacement for ZR1 which Mike tested them on track, and a better fit (than OE) pad.

More importantly is the track feedback, which Ron has been intelligently testing our track pads for CCM rotors, and our Al/CI light weight replacing stock's heavy SS hat. (3.5 vs. 7 lbs)

When you follow "7racer" journal you should know that he also replaced his stock Brembo to RB calipers, and you can see his last track review, the pads wear is minimal and even - much better shape than when he was running ZR1 rotors with stock calipers, while rotor looks healthy and the only concern is the temperature shown from the paint, which accuracy is questionable.

In fact ST is watching further development on GT-R very closely and I believe they understand that this is the first set* of their rotor built by a brake company that has the proper knowledge and resource to explore their rotor potential; in association with the right components like "7racer". Although they had great success on some prestigious racing teams, but I told them we must work together to win the trust from weekend track guys like you where the true value of their products can be put into test, because you are not financed by others like those teams, and where the volume can be accounted for which can in turn lower the rotor price as I stated earlier.

I have been dealing with iron brake for decades, metallurgy and heat transfer were my expertise, but CCM brake is an entire brand new technology, which I have the feeling, based on my research, that even for company like Brembo or ST they are still learning and improving, from the fact of their brake design change.

We are also learning like them by working with you, and can only say that although the system may need some attention like any new technology, but can also assure you that we don't just sell the parts, we are a full service brake company: We offer pre-order consultation, installation advice, and after service including "progressive" upgrade as your braking needs changed like we offer to GT-R community.

I am willing to take a look on your problematic set up, and see if we can find out the culprit of issue, and hopefully come up with a solution to revitalize your CCM brakes.

Cheers!

* We have 3 more duplicate sets to be shipped in 3-4 wks.

paver

^Yes, I have talked with 7racer. I think the jury is still out on his setup since he has relatively few trackdays on them.

Greg Harris who was at ST until late last year always answered my questions promptly. Before he left, he gave me the name of an alternate contact. However this person hasn't answered my e-mail. Trying to get info from Alcon has been frustrating to the point that I don't try any more, but in the end they all are Surface Transforms. So, thanks for you offer. Where do we begin?