Consolidated 991RS thread
05-30-2014, 12:36 PM
#691
Haha. No offense, but if you think you'll have that much spare change from the price delta, I would be frightened to be behind the wheel of that daily driver and I would fear for your life at whatever lodging establishment you select for that EU vacay!
05-30-2014, 12:53 PM
#692
Drifting
No, I don't honestly believe that. I exaggerated to empasize my point that the 991 GT3 will depreciate like most other $100k+ sports cars, whereas the 997 GT3 variants will continue appreciating. I am honestly confident that prices will converge in the next 2-3 years, at least with respect to 997.2 cars.
05-30-2014, 12:55 PM
#693
No, I don't honestly believe that. I exaggerated to empasize my point that the 991 GT3 will depreciate like most other $100k+ sports cars, whereas the 997 GT3 variants will continue appreciating. I am honestly confident that prices will converge in the next 2-3 years, at least with respect to 997.2 cars.
05-30-2014, 01:13 PM
#694
Rennlist Member
05-30-2014, 01:25 PM
#695
Burning Brakes
Turbo makes perfect sense and would be my choice and prediction for Porsche’s new GT Model
for the following reasons:
1. The Torque of Porsche’s 3.8 Liter engine maxes out at 325 Ft. Lbs for GT3 and C2S.
2. Additional N/A Engine HP can come only by increasing RPM or displacement.
3. Rotational Stresses increase hugely at RPM compromising reliability.
4. Both 991 GT3 and 997 GT3RS 4.0. Engines have required numerous replacements.
5. The 911 Design makes larger displacement Engines over 4L problematic.
6. Porsche has more experience with Turbocharging than any other car company.
7. The 4WD TT and TTS already make more Torque than competitors 3.8 L Engines
8. The 2011 997 GT2RS makes 620 HP so a 2015 TTS Engine could easily make 650 HP
9. The higher Fuel Efficiency of Turbocharged engines is required to avoid “Gas-Guzzler” Taxes.
10. “Spy Photos” of the new GT models being tested already have rear fender Turbo-like inlets.
If a 650 HP TTS Engine in a 991 GT3RS (or GT2) does not raise your pulse rate, IMHO you must
have a very severe adrenaline deficiency.
for the following reasons:
1. The Torque of Porsche’s 3.8 Liter engine maxes out at 325 Ft. Lbs for GT3 and C2S.
2. Additional N/A Engine HP can come only by increasing RPM or displacement.
3. Rotational Stresses increase hugely at RPM compromising reliability.
4. Both 991 GT3 and 997 GT3RS 4.0. Engines have required numerous replacements.
5. The 911 Design makes larger displacement Engines over 4L problematic.
6. Porsche has more experience with Turbocharging than any other car company.
7. The 4WD TT and TTS already make more Torque than competitors 3.8 L Engines
8. The 2011 997 GT2RS makes 620 HP so a 2015 TTS Engine could easily make 650 HP
9. The higher Fuel Efficiency of Turbocharged engines is required to avoid “Gas-Guzzler” Taxes.
10. “Spy Photos” of the new GT models being tested already have rear fender Turbo-like inlets.
If a 650 HP TTS Engine in a 991 GT3RS (or GT2) does not raise your pulse rate, IMHO you must
have a very severe adrenaline deficiency.
05-30-2014, 01:35 PM
#696
Race Director
Indeed +2
Given that this is speculation (predicted depreciation) based on speculation (991 GT3 being an "odd duck") we've reached a pretty lofty level of absurdity.
Whether I agree with the idea that the 991 GT3 will depreciate unusually quickly or not (I don't), is irrelevant. I don't buy cars like I do investments, I drive them to enjoy them. The enjoyment level of the 991 GT3 is off the charts, as anyone who has spent any time with the car would know. As I've said before, how much I get for my car when I sell it is the last thing I'm thinking about right now. Others can speculate about that...
Given that this is speculation (predicted depreciation) based on speculation (991 GT3 being an "odd duck") we've reached a pretty lofty level of absurdity.
Whether I agree with the idea that the 991 GT3 will depreciate unusually quickly or not (I don't), is irrelevant. I don't buy cars like I do investments, I drive them to enjoy them. The enjoyment level of the 991 GT3 is off the charts, as anyone who has spent any time with the car would know. As I've said before, how much I get for my car when I sell it is the last thing I'm thinking about right now. Others can speculate about that...
05-30-2014, 01:51 PM
#697
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE][Whether I agree with the idea that the 991 GT3 will depreciate unusually quickly or not (I don't), is irrelevant. I don't buy cars like I do investments, I drive them to enjoy them. The enjoyment level of the 991 GT3 is off the charts, as anyone who has spent any time with the car would know. As I've said before, how much I get for my car when I sell it is the last thing I'm thinking about right now. Others can speculate about that...
__________________QUOTE]
Agree completely with that view. Of course, its nice if depreciation is moderate, but its about the experience of driving a car, not the ROI.
__________________QUOTE]
Agree completely with that view. Of course, its nice if depreciation is moderate, but its about the experience of driving a car, not the ROI.
05-30-2014, 02:01 PM
#698
Turbo makes perfect sense and would be my choice and prediction for Porsche’s new GT Model
for the following reasons:
1. The Torque of Porsche’s 3.8 Liter engine maxes out at 325 Ft. Lbs for GT3 and C2S.
2. Additional N/A Engine HP can come only by increasing RPM or displacement.
3. Rotational Stresses increase hugely at RPM compromising reliability.
4. Both 991 GT3 and 997 GT3RS 4.0. Engines have required numerous replacements.
5. The 911 Design makes larger displacement Engines over 4L problematic.
6. Porsche has more experience with Turbocharging than any other car company.
7. The 4WD TT and TTS already make more Torque than competitors 3.8 L Engines
8. The 2011 997 GT2RS makes 620 HP so a 2015 TTS Engine could easily make 650 HP
9. The higher Fuel Efficiency of Turbocharged engines is required to avoid “Gas-Guzzler” Taxes.
10. “Spy Photos” of the new GT models being tested already have rear fender Turbo-like inlets.
If a 650 HP TTS Engine in a 991 GT3RS (or GT2) does not raise your pulse rate, IMHO you must
have a very severe adrenaline deficiency.
for the following reasons:
1. The Torque of Porsche’s 3.8 Liter engine maxes out at 325 Ft. Lbs for GT3 and C2S.
2. Additional N/A Engine HP can come only by increasing RPM or displacement.
3. Rotational Stresses increase hugely at RPM compromising reliability.
4. Both 991 GT3 and 997 GT3RS 4.0. Engines have required numerous replacements.
5. The 911 Design makes larger displacement Engines over 4L problematic.
6. Porsche has more experience with Turbocharging than any other car company.
7. The 4WD TT and TTS already make more Torque than competitors 3.8 L Engines
8. The 2011 997 GT2RS makes 620 HP so a 2015 TTS Engine could easily make 650 HP
9. The higher Fuel Efficiency of Turbocharged engines is required to avoid “Gas-Guzzler” Taxes.
10. “Spy Photos” of the new GT models being tested already have rear fender Turbo-like inlets.
If a 650 HP TTS Engine in a 991 GT3RS (or GT2) does not raise your pulse rate, IMHO you must
have a very severe adrenaline deficiency.
Also, the spy videos we saw sounded NA.
05-30-2014, 02:11 PM
#699
I'd say you'd looking for a new GT2. However many feel it lacks the precision and involvement of the GT3/ RS, meaning there's plenty of room for both models in the lineup. As for a couple of your points:
Torque is a double edged sword. Not only does it alter the driving experience, but it adds additional weight to the gearbox to handle the stress, etc.
Reliability is not necessarily compromised when correctly designed. There are many examples of high RPM engines that are perfectly reliable (Honda S2000 @9000 rpm, bike engines, etc).
Normally aspirated motors continue to have both better response and higher power to weight ratios than any street turbo motors. Thus for a given power level a normally aspirated RS would have a balance and precision advantage over a turbo. And that, rather than raw speed, is really what the GT3 has been all about, hasn't it?
I understand Porsche has been having trouble getting the power and reliability out of the new motor thus far, and thus I could see turbo being tempting. However a turbo "GT3 RS" would really mean the loss of a GT model, another legend for which there isn't a modern replacement. I'm sure the new model will be great, but that would still be a sad day.
1. The Torque of Porsche’s 3.8 Liter engine maxes out at 325 Ft. Lbs for GT3 and C2S.
3. Rotational Stresses increase hugely at RPM compromising reliability.
Normally aspirated motors continue to have both better response and higher power to weight ratios than any street turbo motors. Thus for a given power level a normally aspirated RS would have a balance and precision advantage over a turbo. And that, rather than raw speed, is really what the GT3 has been all about, hasn't it?
I understand Porsche has been having trouble getting the power and reliability out of the new motor thus far, and thus I could see turbo being tempting. However a turbo "GT3 RS" would really mean the loss of a GT model, another legend for which there isn't a modern replacement. I'm sure the new model will be great, but that would still be a sad day.
05-30-2014, 02:53 PM
#700
Indeed +2 Given that this is speculation (predicted depreciation) based on speculation (991 GT3 being an "odd duck") we've reached a pretty lofty level of absurdity. Whether I agree with the idea that the 991 GT3 will depreciate unusually quickly or not (I don't), is irrelevant. I don't buy cars like I do investments, I drive them to enjoy them. The enjoyment level of the 991 GT3 is off the charts, as anyone who has spent any time with the car would know. As I've said before, how much I get for my car when I sell it is the last thing I'm thinking about right now. Others can speculate about that...
05-30-2014, 03:32 PM
#701
I've said it before and I will say it again.......until they place a proven racing lump in the GT3/RS, there will be problems for this niche product.
As a 2 time buyer of previous versions, I have no interest whatsoever in a new GT3/RS without a racing derived lump. And I'm not the only one...
As a 2 time buyer of previous versions, I have no interest whatsoever in a new GT3/RS without a racing derived lump. And I'm not the only one...
05-30-2014, 03:35 PM
#702
Burning Brakes
^ that's why I'm holding off. Got a cayman just for the track season. if they go turbo for gt3rs, then 4.0 prices will seriously skyrocket. No other option really for a street/track car.
05-30-2014, 04:05 PM
#704
Racer
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Your point is well taken on the reliability and pedigree issues, but those may be dealt with and become non-issues when we look back on these cars in the future.
I personally have faith that the engine fix will be durable although I can understand the skepticism at the moment.
I'm less certain about the future of the 9A1 in racing applications, because I think it depends a lot on the sanctioning bodies, i.e., the FIA and ACOE, etc, deciding what the GT regs for 2016-on will be - I get the sense Porsche is hanging on with the Mezger to see which way that goes.
05-30-2014, 04:18 PM
#705
Rennlist Member
From a branding perspective I just cannot see the 991RS as anything other than N/A
(1) It is normally a superset of the GT3
(2) They do to have to do a gigantic increase in output if they concentrate on weight/aerodynamics for performance
(3) If they do go turbo it is tantamount to saying that the n/a engine in the GT3 is close to the edge of its performance envelope, a pretty damning statement for a new engine.
(4) It makes for an unclear product with too much crossover to the Turbo and GT2.
If you think of the 3.8 GT3 and RS the power differences were actually quite modest, so a similar differential does not sons heroic to me.
(1) It is normally a superset of the GT3
(2) They do to have to do a gigantic increase in output if they concentrate on weight/aerodynamics for performance
(3) If they do go turbo it is tantamount to saying that the n/a engine in the GT3 is close to the edge of its performance envelope, a pretty damning statement for a new engine.
(4) It makes for an unclear product with too much crossover to the Turbo and GT2.
If you think of the 3.8 GT3 and RS the power differences were actually quite modest, so a similar differential does not sons heroic to me.