Uncooked Truth: A Sad State of Manual Transmission Affairs
09-12-2013, 08:54 AM
#526
Nice post, Joe, and good input, for sure.
Suspect it's probably a little different for, say, a BMW M3, BMW M5, Porsche 981, Porsche 991, etc. than, say, a Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, Mazda 6, or even "sporting" coupe. BTW, Mike, suspect the take rate of 5% is on a per-model basis given the passage quoted.
Perhaps more importantly: How does the above work out for Porsche when it can and does charge a significant premium for PDK—vs. those manufacturers in segments who cannot charge a premium for an automatic, DCT, or CVT—where such transmissions are expected as standard equipment? In other words, what's a better business model for Porsche? Continue selling PDK + Sport Chrono as optional equipment to a high percentage of buyers while keeping MT around to justify that healthy premium for PDK, or eliminate MT, save the development dollars, and/or raise base prices across the board to cover the lost revenue on highly popular options? Finally, there's the "heart" matter when it comes to cars for enthusiasts, and especially cars that reinforce a company's ethos—which the OEM insider above notes as important and this thread is all about.
Suspect it's probably a little different for, say, a BMW M3, BMW M5, Porsche 981, Porsche 991, etc. than, say, a Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, Mazda 6, or even "sporting" coupe. BTW, Mike, suspect the take rate of 5% is on a per-model basis given the passage quoted.
Perhaps more importantly: How does the above work out for Porsche when it can and does charge a significant premium for PDK—vs. those manufacturers in segments who cannot charge a premium for an automatic, DCT, or CVT—where such transmissions are expected as standard equipment? In other words, what's a better business model for Porsche? Continue selling PDK + Sport Chrono as optional equipment to a high percentage of buyers while keeping MT around to justify that healthy premium for PDK, or eliminate MT, save the development dollars, and/or raise base prices across the board to cover the lost revenue on highly popular options? Finally, there's the "heart" matter when it comes to cars for enthusiasts, and especially cars that reinforce a company's ethos—which the OEM insider above notes as important and this thread is all about.
Pete, you're missing one
1) Base price for MT
2) + $$ for PDK, Chrono, etc
3) + $$$$$ for MT upgrade for PDK only cars (ie GT3 RS)
I've said it before...I believe Porsche will offer a ltd edition of the 991 GT3RS with a MT for a few select customers (think 993 Turbo S, 997 RS 4.0)
Bill
Last edited by WSH; 10-11-2013 at 12:52 PM.
09-12-2013, 09:09 AM
#527
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Even if that's true,not many(included myself) will be interested at a price north of 250K,as opposed to having a regular GT3 with a manual for 100K less,options included.
09-12-2013, 11:05 AM
#529
This is a bit (well alot) OT - but I just read an article on the new baseline Q50 Infiniti sedan - and they now have steer-by-wire, and their excuse is better performance and precision. I know Porsche would never consider something like this...well, at least for the front wheels,.....but my god, what is the world coming to?
09-12-2013, 12:02 PM
#530
This is a bit (well alot) OT - but I just read an article on the new baseline Q50 Infiniti sedan - and they now have steer-by-wire, and their excuse is better performance and precision. I know Porsche would never consider something like this...well, at least for the front wheels,.....but my god, what is the world coming to?
09-12-2013, 02:06 PM
#531
Race Director
I agree, Porsche could no doubt afford to develop a MT, but based on all the factors involved, it's not an economic slam dunk and might or might not have been profitable. They did reportedly have 4X the development budget for this GT3 which represented a major investment; one reason perhaps why they hesitated to invest even more in the development of a MT. The GT3 project isn't the only iron they have in the fire right now and even a big profitable company has to set limits. I know, I engineered for a company whose profits and revenues make Porsche look like small potatoes and we frequently didn't get exactly what we wanted.
I know this doesn't address the "heart and soul" problem that some see in Porsche not offering a manual. Although some long time customers may be permanently alienated, most will come around, new customers will be gained, and from a purely business standpoint, I suspect Porsche will come out well ahead in the long run. I don't think they're stupid; they've probably worked all of this out. Sacrilege you say? Welcome to capitalism, ladies and gentlemen.
BTW, interesting thing about the new Vette and gearbox choices. Everyone touts the fact that it's offered with both manual and auto. But the auto is a traditional off the shelf torque converter slush-box, because Chevy says there is no DCT that will fit or handle the torque of their V8. The torque issue is obvious BS, as there are any number of cars with more torque using DCT boxes, so theoretically that's not an issue. As for no DCT that fits (now where have I heard that before?), it's just a "simple" matter of building one, if they thought it was in their economic interest to do so. Somehow that sounds familiar too.....
I know this doesn't address the "heart and soul" problem that some see in Porsche not offering a manual. Although some long time customers may be permanently alienated, most will come around, new customers will be gained, and from a purely business standpoint, I suspect Porsche will come out well ahead in the long run. I don't think they're stupid; they've probably worked all of this out. Sacrilege you say? Welcome to capitalism, ladies and gentlemen.
BTW, interesting thing about the new Vette and gearbox choices. Everyone touts the fact that it's offered with both manual and auto. But the auto is a traditional off the shelf torque converter slush-box, because Chevy says there is no DCT that will fit or handle the torque of their V8. The torque issue is obvious BS, as there are any number of cars with more torque using DCT boxes, so theoretically that's not an issue. As for no DCT that fits (now where have I heard that before?), it's just a "simple" matter of building one, if they thought it was in their economic interest to do so. Somehow that sounds familiar too.....
09-12-2013, 02:43 PM
#532
Rennlist Member
Pete, you're missing one
1) Base price for MT
2) + $$ for PDK, Chrono, etc
3) + $$$$$ for MT upgrade for PDK only cars (ie GT3 RS)
I've said it before...I believe Porsche will offer a ltd edition of the 991 GT3RS with a MT for a few select customers (think 993 Turbo S, 997 RS 4.0)
Bill
1) Base price for MT
2) + $$ for PDK, Chrono, etc
3) + $$$$$ for MT upgrade for PDK only cars (ie GT3 RS)
I've said it before...I believe Porsche will offer a ltd edition of the 991 GT3RS with a MT for a few select customers (think 993 Turbo S, 997 RS 4.0)
Bill
09-12-2013, 03:12 PM
#533
Rennlist Member
Would be a fascinating survey to ask teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, etc. whether, if given the choice, they would rather drive their cars or have cars that drive them so they could text message folks, make calls, read the 'net, etc. I'd love to see how the various age groups would answer, as well as the percentages in each group. Also curious to see whether there will eventually be a significant backlash towards everything being "digital."
Frankly, I have little doubt what the answer for most would be. Hence the massive investment underway for autonomous cars, which really have been a dream since, oh, the 1950s—or earlier. This subject has to send shivers down the spines of those who design cars for drivers, who may indeed be a breed who depend at some level on the fact that the rest of the population has no choice but to drive. Or, perhaps it represents an opportunity—to feed that niche, both now and for those in the future who decide to buck the trend. There may be no brand better poised to differentiate itself in this regard than Porsche.
One must also wonder about the longterm legal questions. Do manufacturers, or individual car owners, want to take responsibility for the autonomous car always getting it right? If not them, who? And then there's the other side of that: If someone actually driving a 995 GT3 CVT-S crashes into someone traveling along in their auto-pod while reading CNET on their forearm, is the Porsche driver automatically doomed in court?
09-12-2013, 03:20 PM
#534
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This. If Porsche decides to follow the crowd with increasingly automated cars, they'll face increased competition from both lower-priced cars and more exotic cars. I'd hate to see Porsche fall victim to myopic thinking and become just another 'premium' car company.
09-12-2013, 03:22 PM
#535
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
They'll be frozen and sent into space to aimlessly wonder for eternity...
09-12-2013, 03:58 PM
#537
GT3 player par excellence
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1. it's profit driven, if anyone of u shell out some $ and order 10,000 rs with MT. ppl will start thinking. maybe more than 10000 units.
2. it's 7 speed. most ppl miss shifts with the old four sped cars... just saying...
3. Porsche really has no need to worry.just wipe out ALL MT cars and put PDK and up charge us... ur alternative would be vette, Ferrari, BMW. vette is cool but different clientele. BMW, well, it's not a Porsche... Ferrari, if I can afford to repair a fiat doing 15000 miles a year, I would chuck all my p cars. fiats are all paddle now. BMW should have put foot dwn. hen all out alternatives are paddles, we will come bk to Porsche
just thinking out loud here
those who mt bikes, remember rapid fire? I love it. when it was replaced by the opposite direction rapid rise, I bought close to 40 sets of rapid fire bc I'm old school. guess, what.... I used them up, no more to find...so I learned to use rapid rise...
residence is futile
2. it's 7 speed. most ppl miss shifts with the old four sped cars... just saying...
3. Porsche really has no need to worry.just wipe out ALL MT cars and put PDK and up charge us... ur alternative would be vette, Ferrari, BMW. vette is cool but different clientele. BMW, well, it's not a Porsche... Ferrari, if I can afford to repair a fiat doing 15000 miles a year, I would chuck all my p cars. fiats are all paddle now. BMW should have put foot dwn. hen all out alternatives are paddles, we will come bk to Porsche
just thinking out loud here
those who mt bikes, remember rapid fire? I love it. when it was replaced by the opposite direction rapid rise, I bought close to 40 sets of rapid fire bc I'm old school. guess, what.... I used them up, no more to find...so I learned to use rapid rise...
residence is futile
09-12-2013, 04:30 PM
#539
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Wonder how many Golf R's VAG sells......
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/11/v...rankfurt-2013/
The VW Golf R has always been a GTI on steroids. But even with a bigger dose of performance-enhancing power than the GTI, every generation of R has left us wanting more. Until now, we think. The fourth generation Golf R, based on the seventh-gen Golf, has officially debuted at the Frankfurt Motor Show, and under its hood is an increase in power that dwarfs the prior three generations.
Recall that the first Golf R32 produced 237 horsepower, and the one that followed made 247 hp. The outgoing third-gen model offered 261, which means the latest Golf R, with its turbocharged 2.0-liter TSI four-cylinder engine now producing 296 hp, has received the biggest bump in power by far. In fact, the 36-hp bump is more than the R-line has seen in its first three generations combined.
That engine also makes 280 foot-pounds of torque, which can be carved up by either a six-speed manual or dual clutch transmission. As before, a Haldex all-wheel-drive system sends power where its needed most among the four contact patches. Those wheels can now be ordered in 18- and optional 19-inch sizes, the latter of which fit snugly in the fender wells of a body that's been lowered an extra 0.2 inches compared to the GTI. The Dynamic Chassis Control (DCC) system now also offers a Race mode, which stiffens the dampers and quickens shift times, as one of its four settings.
Of course, since the MKVII Golf hasn't even yet gone on sale in the US (we're expecting it to arrive next year as a 2015 model), the Golf R is even further out for us. But unlike much of the hardware we've been exposed to in Frankfurt, this one will be seeing the grass on our side of the fence eventually.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/11/v...rankfurt-2013/
The VW Golf R has always been a GTI on steroids. But even with a bigger dose of performance-enhancing power than the GTI, every generation of R has left us wanting more. Until now, we think. The fourth generation Golf R, based on the seventh-gen Golf, has officially debuted at the Frankfurt Motor Show, and under its hood is an increase in power that dwarfs the prior three generations.
Recall that the first Golf R32 produced 237 horsepower, and the one that followed made 247 hp. The outgoing third-gen model offered 261, which means the latest Golf R, with its turbocharged 2.0-liter TSI four-cylinder engine now producing 296 hp, has received the biggest bump in power by far. In fact, the 36-hp bump is more than the R-line has seen in its first three generations combined.
That engine also makes 280 foot-pounds of torque, which can be carved up by either a six-speed manual or dual clutch transmission. As before, a Haldex all-wheel-drive system sends power where its needed most among the four contact patches. Those wheels can now be ordered in 18- and optional 19-inch sizes, the latter of which fit snugly in the fender wells of a body that's been lowered an extra 0.2 inches compared to the GTI. The Dynamic Chassis Control (DCC) system now also offers a Race mode, which stiffens the dampers and quickens shift times, as one of its four settings.
Of course, since the MKVII Golf hasn't even yet gone on sale in the US (we're expecting it to arrive next year as a 2015 model), the Golf R is even further out for us. But unlike much of the hardware we've been exposed to in Frankfurt, this one will be seeing the grass on our side of the fence eventually.