Uncooked Truth: A Sad State of Manual Transmission Affairs
09-09-2013, 08:01 PM
#496
Rennlist Member
+1
The old cars were challenging and unfiltered (and I am talking about the old cars, those with torsion bars, though some like to go back even further). Dynamically and in performance terms, the newer cars do everything better even if they lose some of that "unfiltered" feel many prize, but they also present a new challenge to the driver because everything is happening faster/sooner. This is what makes GT3s so addictive to me, even if I like both old and new cars.
To answer Meteor's question, the 991 GT3 is quite a driver's tool and offers incredible capability. I used the word "revelatory" with regards to its handling in my story, and stand by that. The RWS and eDiff plus the wheelbase stretch, wider front track (especially), and new-gen tires make it a new ballgame. You'll see...and its advantages are going to be reflected in lap times and driver confidence. For the record
, my take was: For those open to PDK, the car appears to be a 10 out of 10, and maybe even an 11 out of 10.
Those who are open to PDK are going to be blown away by the 991 GT3, of this much I am sure. It made the 997-2 GT3 that PAG brought to Spain feel oddly disconnected and archaic—far more so than I expected, and I've got several thousand miles in these cars and have been making the leap from one GT3 to the next since they came out in the U.S. They're all wonderful for various reasons, and for one reason. But the thought that went through my mind was "This car was a benchmark 3-4 years ago, and 3-4 minutes ago." A benchmark that was suddenly shattered. The 991 GT3 is a big transition, and, chassis-wise, a wonderful one.
pete
The old cars were challenging and unfiltered (and I am talking about the old cars, those with torsion bars, though some like to go back even further). Dynamically and in performance terms, the newer cars do everything better even if they lose some of that "unfiltered" feel many prize, but they also present a new challenge to the driver because everything is happening faster/sooner. This is what makes GT3s so addictive to me, even if I like both old and new cars.
To answer Meteor's question, the 991 GT3 is quite a driver's tool and offers incredible capability. I used the word "revelatory" with regards to its handling in my story, and stand by that. The RWS and eDiff plus the wheelbase stretch, wider front track (especially), and new-gen tires make it a new ballgame. You'll see...and its advantages are going to be reflected in lap times and driver confidence. For the record
, my take was: For those open to PDK, the car appears to be a 10 out of 10, and maybe even an 11 out of 10. Those who are open to PDK are going to be blown away by the 991 GT3, of this much I am sure. It made the 997-2 GT3 that PAG brought to Spain feel oddly disconnected and archaic—far more so than I expected, and I've got several thousand miles in these cars and have been making the leap from one GT3 to the next since they came out in the U.S. They're all wonderful for various reasons, and for one reason. But the thought that went through my mind was "This car was a benchmark 3-4 years ago, and 3-4 minutes ago." A benchmark that was suddenly shattered. The 991 GT3 is a big transition, and, chassis-wise, a wonderful one.
pete
09-09-2013, 08:29 PM
#497
+1
The old cars were challenging and unfiltered (and I am talking about the old cars, those with torsion bars, though some like to go back even further). Dynamically and in performance terms, the newer cars do everything better even if they lose some of that "unfiltered" feel many prize, but they also present a new challenge to the driver because everything is happening faster/sooner. This is what makes GT3s so addictive to me, even if I like both old and new cars.
To answer Meteor's question, the 991 GT3 is quite a driver's tool and offers incredible capability. I used the word "revelatory" with regards to its handling in my story, and stand by that. The RWS and eDiff plus the wheelbase stretch, wider front track (especially), and new-gen tires make it a new ballgame. You'll see...and its advantages are going to be reflected in lap times and driver confidence. For the record , my take was: For those open to PDK, the car appears to be a 10 out of 10, and maybe even an 11 out of 10.
Those who are open to PDK are going to be blown away by the 991 GT3, of this much I am sure. It made the 997-2 GT3 that PAG brought to Spain feel oddly disconnected and archaic—far more so than I expected, and I've got several thousand miles in these cars and have been making the leap from one GT3 to the next since they came out in the U.S. They're all wonderful for various reasons, and for one reason. But the thought that went through my mind was "This car was a benchmark 3-4 years ago, and 3-4 minutes ago." A benchmark that was suddenly shattered. The 991 GT3 is a big transition, and, chassis-wise, a wonderful one.
pete
The old cars were challenging and unfiltered (and I am talking about the old cars, those with torsion bars, though some like to go back even further). Dynamically and in performance terms, the newer cars do everything better even if they lose some of that "unfiltered" feel many prize, but they also present a new challenge to the driver because everything is happening faster/sooner. This is what makes GT3s so addictive to me, even if I like both old and new cars.
To answer Meteor's question, the 991 GT3 is quite a driver's tool and offers incredible capability. I used the word "revelatory" with regards to its handling in my story, and stand by that. The RWS and eDiff plus the wheelbase stretch, wider front track (especially), and new-gen tires make it a new ballgame. You'll see...and its advantages are going to be reflected in lap times and driver confidence. For the record
, my take was: For those open to PDK, the car appears to be a 10 out of 10, and maybe even an 11 out of 10. Those who are open to PDK are going to be blown away by the 991 GT3, of this much I am sure. It made the 997-2 GT3 that PAG brought to Spain feel oddly disconnected and archaic—far more so than I expected, and I've got several thousand miles in these cars and have been making the leap from one GT3 to the next since they came out in the U.S. They're all wonderful for various reasons, and for one reason. But the thought that went through my mind was "This car was a benchmark 3-4 years ago, and 3-4 minutes ago." A benchmark that was suddenly shattered. The 991 GT3 is a big transition, and, chassis-wise, a wonderful one.
pete
09-09-2013, 10:13 PM
#500
Race Director
Mike,for me the calculation is simple : when I drive my stick cars I use 2 hands and 2 legs. To drive a PDK car you only use 1 hand(ok ok...you can use 2 hands if you insist to granny flap paddles) and 1 leg...that's 50% no? 
Kidding aside,whether you want to acknowledge it or not,you did lose involvement,don't know the percentage,I guess it's different for every person,some might actually think the new car has gained something due to its increased usability,to me,50% sounds about right...
Kidding aside,whether you want to acknowledge it or not,you did lose involvement,don't know the percentage,I guess it's different for every person,some might actually think the new car has gained something due to its increased usability,to me,50% sounds about right...
It's not a zero sum game. For me, there are so many sounds, sensations, interactions, inputs, and feedback of all kinds involved in the driving experience that to suggest not having a clutch and stick reduces involvement by 50%, while not considering possible advantages or other factors, isn't reasonable. Neither an MP-4 12 or 458 has a clutch and stick so by your definition those cars can at best only be 50% as involving or entertaining as a car that has both. Really?
I haven't driven a 991 GT3 yet so I'm laying my previous driving and Porsche experiences onto my expectations for the new car. But it's encouraging when someone like Pete who is clearly a champion for the MT, and despite the absence of one in the new GT3, can drive the car and reach the generally very positive conclusions he's shared with us in his review and posts.
50%? Not even remotely close....
Last edited by Mike in CA; 09-10-2013 at 02:25 AM.
09-10-2013, 09:47 AM
#501
Race Car
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No issue with the math. Two of five direct mechanical linkages are gone, with one of them replaced by buttons in the form of paddles (so no more mechanical linkage).
The MT is an exercise in patting your head while rubbing your belly against the other controls—probably why some won't miss it. To me, it provides a chance to do this:
http://youtu.be/uXMuWi0dUBc
...and, when you get it right, have it feel more like this...being all about nuance:
Agree on keeping PDK in manual. Had a Cayman S PDK for two years and usually kept it in M. Even so, it was no replacement for a real shifter and clutch pedal—for me, anyway. I ordered my next two dailies with MT even though there was an excellent DCT available, and my better half wouldn't have DCT, either. In that Cayman S—which I truly LOVED on track—street driving in Auto mode required the car to be in Sport mode to avoid completely annoying me with way-early upshifts. Always felt funny, having to hit a "Sport" buttonin a sports car. Almost like it should be the other way around, with an "Eco" button for those rare times when I truly didn't care—though I know Porsche can't do it any other way these days.
pete
The MT is an exercise in patting your head while rubbing your belly against the other controls—probably why some won't miss it. To me, it provides a chance to do this:
http://youtu.be/uXMuWi0dUBc
...and, when you get it right, have it feel more like this...being all about nuance:
Agree on keeping PDK in manual. Had a Cayman S PDK for two years and usually kept it in M. Even so, it was no replacement for a real shifter and clutch pedal—for me, anyway. I ordered my next two dailies with MT even though there was an excellent DCT available, and my better half wouldn't have DCT, either. In that Cayman S—which I truly LOVED on track—street driving in Auto mode required the car to be in Sport mode to avoid completely annoying me with way-early upshifts. Always felt funny, having to hit a "Sport" buttonin a sports car. Almost like it should be the other way around, with an "Eco" button for those rare times when I truly didn't care—though I know Porsche can't do it any other way these days.
pete
09-10-2013, 10:22 AM
#502
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Nick, for me it's not how many arms and legs I'm using, but how much the lump between my ears is engaged.
It's not a zero sum game. For me, there are so many sounds, sensations, interactions, inputs, and feedback of all kinds involved in the driving experience that to suggest not having a clutch and stick reduces involvement by 50%, while not considering possible advantages or other factors, isn't reasonable. Neither an MP-4 12 or 458 has a clutch and stick so by your definition those cars can at best only be 50% as involving or entertaining as a car that has both. Really?
I haven't driven a 991 GT3 yet so I'm laying my previous driving and Porsche experiences onto my expectations for the new car. But it's encouraging when someone like Pete who is clearly a champion for the MT, and despite the absence of one in the new GT3, can drive the car and reach the generally very positive conclusions he's shared with us in his review and posts.
50%? Not even remotely close....
My point is,all of the above worked great as a package with a Manual transmission since 1999 and the new car lost a few bits of that package and surely is heading towards the market the cars you've mentioned fit in.
09-10-2013, 12:16 PM
#503
Exactly. Every review of the new GT3 I've seen has buried somewhere in the text the statement that the new version is easier to drive than the prior one and that it will be a better street car. Porsche had to compromise to compete with the likes of the MP4 12C and 458. This compromise will make the GT3 more appealing to the masses and less special for the drivers who crave involvement. It's all about the bottom line. Now that their #1 selling vehicle worldwide is an SUV, what do you expect?
09-10-2013, 12:37 PM
#504
Rennlist Member
For some reason,in my humble opinion,I just can't fit the GT3 along any of the cars you've mentioned...and I think that's exactly why it is unique. The McLaren doesn't do it for me,even if I had the money,I'd love a 458 though,just like I'd love a Pagani or the Aventador. But all these cars are different than the GT3,they provide excitement thru looks,sounds and exclusivity. The GT3 is different,it involves you more in the driving experience,it makes you work hard to get performance,the hard clutch,the engine behind you,tight steering and chassis,the raw sensation of a car you see dominating local tracks,zooming all day without a problem. You do not see many/if any Ferraris or McLarens at the track.
My point is,all of the above worked great as a package with a Manual transmission since 1999 and the new car lost a few bits of that package and surely is heading towards the market the cars you've mentioned fit in.
My point is,all of the above worked great as a package with a Manual transmission since 1999 and the new car lost a few bits of that package and surely is heading towards the market the cars you've mentioned fit in.
09-10-2013, 12:40 PM
#505
Race Director
When I owned Porsche's, I track them. When I owned Ferrari's I did not. My reason for not doing so was financial. If Ferrari's cost as much as Porsche's I would have tracked them. It had absolutely nothing to do whether the car had MT. Knowing many Ferrari owners, they felt the same way.
09-10-2013, 12:48 PM
#506
Rennlist Member
However, I should point out there are Ferrari club events but often the Ferrari's participating are Stradales and Scuderia's car made for the track.
09-10-2013, 01:19 PM
#507
Race Car
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I think to comfortably use , much less track, a fiat, you have to be pretty wealthy. At a level where you don't stress a door ding at the Safeway or a scraped front splitter. Otherwise, you end up not driving it too much and freaking out about using it as a car.
When I went to dump my 360 6-speed manual no dealer would touch it b/c I inadvertently scraped the paint under the front bumper/splitter leaving a parking garage. The scrape could not be seen, but it was a deal killer. So it ended up on a exotic used car lot after my Porsche dealer took it in.
Exactly. Every review of the new GT3 I've seen has buried somewhere in the text the statement that the new version is easier to drive than the prior one and that it will be a better street car. Porsche had to compromise to compete with the likes of the MP4 12C and 458. This compromise will make the GT3 more appealing to the masses and less special for the drivers who crave involvement. It's all about the bottom line. Now that their #1 selling vehicle worldwide is an SUV, what do you expect?
09-10-2013, 02:06 PM
#509
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Exactly. Every review of the new GT3 I've seen has buried somewhere in the text the statement that the new version is easier to drive than the prior one and that it will be a better street car. Porsche had to compromise to compete with the likes of the MP4 12C and 458. This compromise will make the GT3 more appealing to the masses and less special for the drivers who crave involvement. It's all about the bottom line. Now that their #1 selling vehicle worldwide is an SUV, what do you expect?
And I predict(speaking of predictions,where is Macca
) that Porsche won't be successful with this strategy,because the other 2 have that market covered pretty well and in terms of looks and exclusivity those win,the GT3 being nothing more than a 911 with a big wing. Please note I'm only mentioning looks and exclusivity,not performance.So,if they continue down this road,they better be prepared to forget 911's history and acknowledge the engine behind the rear axle has reached the end of performance extraction,that there isn't much more that can be achieved using a 3.8 or even 4.0 flat 6 NA etc,no matter how many gimmicks like RWS they come up with...
09-10-2013, 02:41 PM
#510
Burning Brakes
Not sure I would want a hand full or gear stick doing this lap.
Video Link: http://youtu.be/2Yz8cizr6sI
Video Link: http://youtu.be/2Yz8cizr6sI
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