Uncooked Truth: A Sad State of Manual Transmission Affairs
09-06-2013, 03:52 PM
#391
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The most common complaint about PDK is that the computer is "doing it for you." With ABS and threshold braking without skidding, the computer is "doing it for you." I'm not sure why that is so hard to grasp.
Maybe the subtlety here relates to the Pete's point about changing the control mechanism. In a true mechanical sense, ABS is MORE sophisticated than PDK because it is doing something a human being cannot do - namely individually pulsing each front and both rear brakes at the verge of lockup.
PDK is just taking over pushing in and letting out the clutch and rev matching on downshifts.
So maybe we could parse this like so: 1) you don't get upset when the computer does something a human being is physically incapable of doing and 2) you do get upset when the computer replaces something you ARE capable of doing yourself (even if you can't do it as well).
Maybe the subtlety here relates to the Pete's point about changing the control mechanism. In a true mechanical sense, ABS is MORE sophisticated than PDK because it is doing something a human being cannot do - namely individually pulsing each front and both rear brakes at the verge of lockup.
PDK is just taking over pushing in and letting out the clutch and rev matching on downshifts.
So maybe we could parse this like so: 1) you don't get upset when the computer does something a human being is physically incapable of doing and 2) you do get upset when the computer replaces something you ARE capable of doing yourself (even if you can't do it as well).
Who says that everyone will be threshold braking regularly? Nobody.
So what if people like computers to help them brake but not shift. There is nothing wrong with that.
Some people like log fireplaces in modern houses. So what?
Variety is the spice of life. There is nothing that says if you like A, therefore you then must like B because it's next after A.
No one has to to have a reason that makes sense to you to prefer what they would want to do themselves and what they would want to leave to the computers.
09-06-2013, 03:57 PM
#392
Three Wheelin'
+1. Would also add:
PDK- Removes two out of five mechanical control inputs in a car.
ABS- There's still a brake pedal to modulate, feather, etc.
With PDK, the clutch pedal is gone, and the shift lever is replaced by buttons the driver can opt to use. Not saying it's a bad way to go (!), or that no other driving challenges remain (!!!), but let's face the fact that 40% of a driver's mechanical interface with the car is gone. PDK offers a driver no control of its clutches. While PDK-S provides a nifty clutch release trick if you're into drifting and burnouts, it's an on/off interface as far as driver input is concerned. Occasionally, I've seen PDK get tripped up by a real-world situation it couldn't anticipate and get a little jerky. Not bad, but not as smooth as a good, anticipatory driver would have been if he or she had a clutch pedal to modulate. Big deal? TEHO.
As for ABS, unless I am doing something wrong, it only enters the picture when I have misjudged my heavy braking. So it's a safety net that still leaves a driver to do the driving, and I'll take it right alongside PSM. I view these as fender-saving—and potentially life-saving—technologies that rarely make themselves known.
PDK fundamentally alters the total driving experience, all the time. Some like that, some don't—but it's not like ABS.
PDK- Removes two out of five mechanical control inputs in a car.
ABS- There's still a brake pedal to modulate, feather, etc.
With PDK, the clutch pedal is gone, and the shift lever is replaced by buttons the driver can opt to use. Not saying it's a bad way to go (!), or that no other driving challenges remain (!!!), but let's face the fact that 40% of a driver's mechanical interface with the car is gone. PDK offers a driver no control of its clutches. While PDK-S provides a nifty clutch release trick if you're into drifting and burnouts, it's an on/off interface as far as driver input is concerned. Occasionally, I've seen PDK get tripped up by a real-world situation it couldn't anticipate and get a little jerky. Not bad, but not as smooth as a good, anticipatory driver would have been if he or she had a clutch pedal to modulate. Big deal? TEHO.
As for ABS, unless I am doing something wrong, it only enters the picture when I have misjudged my heavy braking. So it's a safety net that still leaves a driver to do the driving, and I'll take it right alongside PSM. I view these as fender-saving—and potentially life-saving—technologies that rarely make themselves known.
PDK fundamentally alters the total driving experience, all the time. Some like that, some don't—but it's not like ABS.
however, the change of control interaction, (which has been available with sequentials for quite a while (Porsche 956?), so you don't even need a computer), is really the issue.
To me, this issue should have a "barbell" shape to it. At one end - sitting in LA traffic, I want PDK. In the middle - on a brisk drive on a public mountain road on Sunday, I want a true manual. At the other end - at a Porsche club race, I'll take the latest, coolest, fastest technology - PDK
09-06-2013, 03:59 PM
#393
Three Wheelin'
Who says that everyone will be threshold braking regularly? Nobody.
So what if people like computers to help them brake but not shift. There is nothing wrong with that.
Some people like log fireplaces in modern houses. So what?
Variety is the spice of life. There is nothing that says if you like A, therefore you then must like B because it's next after A.
No one has to to have a reason that makes sense to you to prefer what they would want to do themselves and what they would want to leave to the computers.
So what if people like computers to help them brake but not shift. There is nothing wrong with that.
Some people like log fireplaces in modern houses. So what?
Variety is the spice of life. There is nothing that says if you like A, therefore you then must like B because it's next after A.
No one has to to have a reason that makes sense to you to prefer what they would want to do themselves and what they would want to leave to the computers.
09-06-2013, 04:09 PM
#394
Three Wheelin'
I'm sure that's what the car guys in Detroit told the acccountants when customers started to look elsewhere. It took a number of years but hubris, greed, and regulatorry change ultimately brought them to their knees.
I hope, and don't believe, this will happen to Porsche but I don't see how you put a positive spin on turning your back on a customer base you've worked years to develop.
I hope, and don't believe, this will happen to Porsche but I don't see how you put a positive spin on turning your back on a customer base you've worked years to develop.
Porsche will sell more 991 GT3s than 997 GT3s because it is a much better, faster, sharper (and in some ways more visceral) machine (it looks like they are already on track to do just that).
It's an outstanding car and is apparently as fast as a McLaren on a short track, unbelievable really.
I may go buy one just to spite Wanna911.
09-06-2013, 04:13 PM
#395
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For what? I'm not trying to convince anyone why they should prefer manual instead of PDK. No one has had to explain why they like PDK.
It's the inability of a few to accept that there still are a large number of people who DONT want PDK that's the issue.
09-06-2013, 04:33 PM
#396
Race Director
Just a quick comment about losing 40% of the mechanical control interface with PDK. From a practical standpoint, we haven't lost the ability to manually select gears; the interface is now sequential with the paddles and stick where before it was gated. The ability to disengage the clutch with the paddles is useful for more than just burnouts and drifting. It can be disengaged in tight corners to help position the car, or to blip the throttle just to hear the lovely exhaust note and impress passers by 
so I don't know if it deserves being knocked down a full 20%.
Also, it could be argued that other aspects of the interface including steering, brakes, and throttle, have been enhanced by the ability to keep both hands on the wheel at all times, shift in corners, shift without lifting, and left foot brake more easily.
I'm not arguing for/against the subjective aspects or benefits of the MT or PDK, just suggesting that maybe the implications of the 40% number are a bit misleading. It's a thought exercise; not trying to stir the hornets nest again.
so I don't know if it deserves being knocked down a full 20%.Also, it could be argued that other aspects of the interface including steering, brakes, and throttle, have been enhanced by the ability to keep both hands on the wheel at all times, shift in corners, shift without lifting, and left foot brake more easily.
I'm not arguing for/against the subjective aspects or benefits of the MT or PDK, just suggesting that maybe the implications of the 40% number are a bit misleading. It's a thought exercise; not trying to stir the hornets nest again.
09-06-2013, 04:35 PM
#397
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To me, this issue should have a "barbell" shape to it. At one end - sitting in LA traffic, I want PDK. In the middle - on a brisk drive on a public mountain road on Sunday, I want a true manual. At the other end - at a Porsche club race, I'll take the latest, coolest, fastest technology - PDK
Except I try to stay out of LA traffic altogether.
09-06-2013, 04:46 PM
#398
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Just a quick comment about losing 40% of the mechanical control interface with PDK. From a practical standpoint, we haven't lost the ability to manually select gears; the interface is now sequential with the paddles and stick where before it was gated. The ability to disengage the clutch with the paddles is useful for more than just burnouts and drifting. It can be disengaged in tight corners to help position the car, or to blip the throttle just to hear the lovely exhaust note and impress passers by so I don't know if it deserves being knocked down a full 20%.Also, it could be argued that other aspects of the interface including steering, brakes, and throttle, have been enhanced by the ability to keep both hands on the wheel at all times, shift in corners, shift without lifting, and left foot brake more easily.
I'm not arguing for/against the subjective aspects or benefits of the MT or PDK, just suggesting that maybe the implications of the 40% number are a bit misleading. It's a thought exercise; not trying to stir the hornets nest again.
I agree with the enhancements provided by PDK you state, but there are now two controls missing, one of which has been replaced by an artificially-mechanical gear change selector. The click in the paddles or feel of the PDK shift **** are indeed artificial. The same thing can be accomplished by a no-feedback, touchscreen button like on your iphone.
So yeah. Two true mechanical controls are now gone.
09-06-2013, 04:50 PM
#399
Nordschleife Master
Mike, while I fall in the camp of 'well heck I'm gonna give this PDK thing a whirl b/c the new car appears so compelling' I think the clutch disengagement thing is sort of a gimmick. Of course I want to be a delinquent every now and again and light 'em up when the rears are at the end of their life, but I cannot imagine using the feature on track or daily on the street. I never did with a manual, don't think I would with PDK. Not sure where one would pull both paddles in on a road course.
I agree with the enhancements provided by PDK you state, but there are now two controls missing, one of which has been replaced by an artificially-mechanical gear change selector. The click in the paddles or feel of the PDK shift **** are indeed artificial. The same thing can be accomplished by a no-feedback, touchscreen button like on your iphone.
So yeah. Two true mechanical controls are now gone.
I agree with the enhancements provided by PDK you state, but there are now two controls missing, one of which has been replaced by an artificially-mechanical gear change selector. The click in the paddles or feel of the PDK shift **** are indeed artificial. The same thing can be accomplished by a no-feedback, touchscreen button like on your iphone.
So yeah. Two true mechanical controls are now gone.
09-06-2013, 05:16 PM
#400
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But to me your proposal is kinda like butt implants. Fake ***** are one thing but dear god my good man, there's gotta be a limit.
09-06-2013, 05:18 PM
#401
Race Director
Mike, while I fall in the camp of 'well heck I'm gonna give this PDK thing a whirl b/c the new car appears so compelling' I think the clutch disengagement thing is sort of a gimmick. Of course I want to be a delinquent every now and again and light 'em up when the rears are at the end of their life, but I cannot imagine using the feature on track or daily on the street. I never did with a manual, don't think I would with PDK. Not sure where one would pull both paddles in on a road course.
I agree with the enhancements provided by PDK you state, but there are now two controls missing, one of which has been replaced by an artificially-mechanical gear change selector. The click in the paddles or feel of the PDK shift **** are indeed artificial. The same thing can be accomplished by a no-feedback, touchscreen button like on your iphone.
So yeah. Two true mechanical controls are now gone.
I agree with the enhancements provided by PDK you state, but there are now two controls missing, one of which has been replaced by an artificially-mechanical gear change selector. The click in the paddles or feel of the PDK shift **** are indeed artificial. The same thing can be accomplished by a no-feedback, touchscreen button like on your iphone.
So yeah. Two true mechanical controls are now gone.
If it's the actual mechanical connection one craves, then I have no argument, although with rev matching, gear skipping manuals like that in the new Stingray there is some purity missing there too. (Yeah, I know rev matching can be turned off). I was thinking more in terms of the bottom line which is the human rather than computer control aspect. In that regard we haven't lost 40% with PDK, which does take away some things, but also expands other possibilities.
09-06-2013, 05:21 PM
#402
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It's a valid point that as we add technologies to sports cars, some directness of interaction with the car goes away, as does driver challenge and 'purity' of the experience. It then becomes a matter of preference and choice which technologies we want to accept or not. Examples:
- I think both manual and PDK are valid choices on both road and track. I might even opt for PDK for my use (mainly track, but not competetive nor wanna's level). But the point is that Porsche needs to give us a choice, not force a choice on us.
- I'd rather have ABS. Can get close enough to threshold without triggering ABS, much braking is below threshold anyway, and ABS is a good safety feature.
- I don't really care whether steering is manual or power, as long as it's precise and gives ample feedback.
- I want PSM, but don't want it intervening unless I'm really in trouble, and want to be able to turn it off.
- PTV feels a bit like cheating to me.
- I like RWS.
- I think both manual and PDK are valid choices on both road and track. I might even opt for PDK for my use (mainly track, but not competetive nor wanna's level). But the point is that Porsche needs to give us a choice, not force a choice on us.
- I'd rather have ABS. Can get close enough to threshold without triggering ABS, much braking is below threshold anyway, and ABS is a good safety feature.
- I don't really care whether steering is manual or power, as long as it's precise and gives ample feedback.
- I want PSM, but don't want it intervening unless I'm really in trouble, and want to be able to turn it off.
- PTV feels a bit like cheating to me.
- I like RWS.
09-06-2013, 05:36 PM
#403
Rennlist Member
Just a quick comment about losing 40% of the mechanical control interface with PDK. From a practical standpoint, we haven't lost the ability to manually select gears; the interface is now sequential with the paddles and stick where before it was gated. The ability to disengage the clutch with the paddles is useful for more than just burnouts and drifting. It can be disengaged in tight corners to help position the car, or to blip the throttle just to hear the lovely exhaust note and impress passers by so I don't know if it deserves being knocked down a full 20%.
Also, it could be argued that other aspects of the interface including steering, brakes, and throttle, have been enhanced by the ability to keep both hands on the wheel at all times, shift in corners, shift without lifting, and left foot brake more easily.
I'm not arguing for/against the subjective aspects or benefits of the MT or PDK, just suggesting that maybe the implications of the 40% number are a bit misleading. It's a thought exercise; not trying to stir the hornets nest again.
so I don't know if it deserves being knocked down a full 20%.Also, it could be argued that other aspects of the interface including steering, brakes, and throttle, have been enhanced by the ability to keep both hands on the wheel at all times, shift in corners, shift without lifting, and left foot brake more easily.
I'm not arguing for/against the subjective aspects or benefits of the MT or PDK, just suggesting that maybe the implications of the 40% number are a bit misleading. It's a thought exercise; not trying to stir the hornets nest again.
The only time PDK is better is when you are tired, leave it in automatic on a late traffic laden drive home, while you are on the phone finishing up the last calls of the day. Other than that, give me manual all the time.
The 2 flappies pulled in Neutral is to me a gimmick they added just to have something as an excuse. Burnouts? Drifting? Really? WTF Mike, you did not believe that yourself when you wrote it. Maybe an occasional rev in traffic out of frustration lol, but you can do that by putting the shifter in N in any other automatic no?
I'll give you left foot braking maybe, that is something I cant do well and you will have to do to get the most lap time out of the PDK, so that might be a challenge that make me accept PDK-S or hate it even more ;-)
09-06-2013, 05:42 PM
#404
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09-06-2013, 06:00 PM
#405
Race Director
No, cant agree either. You lose all the way around IMHO, more than 40% even. I have to disagree with all the reason you mention.
The only time PDK is better is when you are tired, leave it in automatic on a late traffic laden drive home, while you are on the phone finishing up the last calls of the day. Other than that, give me manual all the time.
The 2 flappies pulled in Neutral is to me a gimmick they added just to have something as an excuse. Burnouts? Drifting? Really? WTF Mike, you did not believe that yourself when you wrote it. Maybe an occasional rev in traffic out of frustration lol, but you can do that by putting the shifter in N in any other automatic no?
I'll give you left foot braking maybe, that is something I cant do well and you will have to do to get the most lap time out of the PDK, so that might be a challenge that make me accept PDK-S or hate it even more ;-)
The only time PDK is better is when you are tired, leave it in automatic on a late traffic laden drive home, while you are on the phone finishing up the last calls of the day. Other than that, give me manual all the time.
The 2 flappies pulled in Neutral is to me a gimmick they added just to have something as an excuse. Burnouts? Drifting? Really? WTF Mike, you did not believe that yourself when you wrote it. Maybe an occasional rev in traffic out of frustration lol, but you can do that by putting the shifter in N in any other automatic no?
I'll give you left foot braking maybe, that is something I cant do well and you will have to do to get the most lap time out of the PDK, so that might be a challenge that make me accept PDK-S or hate it even more ;-)
Out of curiosity, why do you disagree that no lift shifting, shifting in corners without upsetting the car, and not taking one hand off the wheel every few seconds, are potential advantages?
Dropping the car in N at stops to blip the throttle risks accidentally finding R instead; instead of sounding cool you end up looking real stupid....;-)