frayed

earlierapex, many good points. But much of what you stated is relevant to a full on track car or race car. Since the majority of GT3 miles will be logged on the street (if I had to guess), then street use must be given priority. This is where I will miss the MT.

But that doesn't mean I'm not going with the new car. I am very excited based on the how I think the car will be in its totality.

Like a nymphomaniac super model who is a 3 star michelin chef but snores in bed. I'll get over it.

Mike in CA

LOL!

LotF

No manual, no sale.
Keep up the complaining. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Vote with your wallet. Money talks, BS walks.
PDK is a crutch for the real problem. Lack of power.
When the 4.0L manual comes out, all the granny paddlers will complain, and those who wait will be rewarded for not falling for gimmicks. There is no replacement for displacement.

Mike in CA

I think the record for idioms, analogies, and colloquial phrases in a single RL post is 8 and you had 7! So close!!

Kidding...

Petevb

Personally I think my passion for this topic has been fueled because the decision to drop the manual is one I don't fully understand.
We've heard many arguments, various forms of:

1. "PDK is better (everywhere, for everyone?)"
2. "The manual won't sell"
3. "Engineering a manual would be too compromised/ expensive"

While all of these have a grain of truth, none of these seem true enough (to me) to justify dropping the manual. We've heard counter-arguments to each of these, and they generally also have more than a grain of truth. Regardless of which side of the debate you're on, it's clear that a sizable percentage of the an audience Porsche spent years courting is not a fan of this decision. (To those that doubt this, please post a neutrally worded poll on the 997 GT3 board).

What's more, this reaction was entirely predictable- Porsche is by no means the first to feel the wrath of customers when the MT went away, and given that 100% of previous GT3 customers were manual drivers, some amount of backlash seemed virtually guaranteed. So the decision was made despite this.

Why? I used to think it was a mistake- Porsche didn't fully understand some of their customers, particularly in the US. But that explanation doesn't satisfy either. These are undeniably very sharp people, and assuming they've simply blown it isn't an explanation I can quite swallow.

The alternative, however, seems even less palatable: Porsche has decided to disown manual transmission drivers- like Ferrari they don't need that demographic. But this isn't a why, it's a what. So I look for a why, go back to the top of the page, and repeat. I think many people are doing the same thing, which is why this debate recycles every few days, and will continue to do so.

I think if I can personally answer the question why, I'll let it go. There are many decisions Porsche makes I don't like (ie the decision not to stick the GT3 motor in the Cayman) but they don't bother me much because I understand them. So I've been trying to understand this decision, and I've been making limited progress.

I fully agree that the GT cars are halo models. Built by a different group with its own rules, they are made in such small numbers as to be nearly inconsequential to the company's bottom line, and can't possibly have the same profit margins as the rest of the fleet. While it distracted a sizable number of Porsche's best and brightest engineers, GT3s sold an average of just over 1000 a year of all types since 2006, while requiring the engineering, homologation, emission testing, etc of nearly one new motor and chassis derivative per year. However every one of those cars helped sell nearly 80 Cayennes (78k sold last year) plus an untold numbers of Panameras and soon Macans. With SUVs and four doors accounting for over 70 percent of worldwide sales (and climbing) it can be argued that even the Carrera, Boxster and Cayman are all becoming halo models. The V6 Cayenne owner might spend more than on an equivalent VW Touareg, but the extra 10k buys a little bit of 911.

At first glance this math seems to argue for a manual transmission in the GT3 all the more. The model exists not to make substantial profit itself but rather to carry the enthusiast banner; compared to the literally hundreds of cars each manual GT3 would help sell (if by nothing more than the continued enthusiasm and goodwill of former GT3 customers) the development dollars seem rather inconsequential.

When one looks at the practicality of a manual GT3, however, a tricky problem presents: the manual carrera 7 speed. The press this gearbox has been getting hasn't been the kind to sell cars. One of the "5 worst manual gearboxes", etc. Imagining I'm in charge of development, that's not something I'm going to let ruin my top halo model. Job one would be to fix it...

But it's fundamentally an automatic pressed into service as a manual. What if I can't fix it? No problem, my team can easily replace it with a new 6 speed manual, job done.
OK... so the 7 speed was so flawed you needed to dump it for a 6 speed? You're admitting the 911 has a worse transmission than the Boxster?

Add this discussion to the sales targets for the car: as a halo model these numbers will be very small, likely kept that way artificially. In fact I think it's perfectly possible that when development dollars are included Porsche is losing money on every GT3 they sell- Nissan certainly loses money on every GT-R, it's not impossible to think that Porsche would need to do the same to compete. In that case adding a manual and selling more cars might not be a good thing.

These arguments, however, are not reasons that could reasonably put forth to justify dropping the manual:
4. "We couldn't do a proper manual because it would make the 7 speed in the carrera look bad" is not something that's going to go over well. Likewise
5. "We can't afford to sell more cars" doesn't sound too hot either.

I suspect the answer lies in these in combination with the grains of truth in reasons 1 through 3 above. In sum they add up to another decision I don't like, but could almost understand. Almost...

Mike in CA

Pete, an excellent and very well thought out analysis. May I suggest one additional hypothesis to your 5 arguments that may or may not have a grain of truth to it, but which is something I keep thinking about. In fact it's one reason why I decided to jump into the market for a new GT3 when I did.

6. CAFE standards for passenger cars will be at 37mpg in little more than 2 years. Hybrids are coming (the 991 chassis has been designed for a hybrid power train; also see 918 test bed vehicle) and MT's don't fit with that technology. The 7 speed PDK derived manual is no more than a placeholder until then and Porsche was not inclined to develop a new manual for a single production run of the 991 GT3, especially when PDK-S proved to be so potent in development. Some customers have been bitterly disappointed, but that disappointment was inevitable within a couple of years anyway.

Terrence

Z28 is a manual only car. I am very interested. Can't wait to test drive one.

blake

Mike - I have been searching for the compelling reason why Porsche chose to drop the MT, and I think you just hit the nail on the head.... From a profitability perspective, this makes strategic sense.

-B

MaxLTV

Amazing how people see what they want to see even when they look at exact numbers. Did you just ignore that before LCI DCT was practically unavailable? It just was not manufactured, period - hence people buying manuals. Also what about the fact that once both transmissions were equally available (after LCI), outside North America less than 10% of cars were sold with Manual even while DCT was an expensive option!

It's funny how Americans think manuals are special. At the same time, the rest of the world had manuals almost exclusively till just a decade ago, and very few have such sentimental feelings about them. Outside of the NA bubble, where manual may be a special "real man" thing, this attitude just does not make sense. Most of the world - women, wimps, and retirees included - drove manual all their lives and see nothing special about it. For most people in the wide world, it's in the same bucket as being able to tie shoelaces - why would anyone be so holier-than-thou about it? I passed my driver's test on a manual car without synchromesh, which is like manual on steroids (and unlike tests in USA, it was timed, included acceleration and braking, and s slow shift was automatic fail), and outside of North America I would not even think of it as something special - just a very minor nuisance. Here it is, "holy sh-t, you are the man..." Really? Oh yeah, I literally spent HOURS mastering this secret skill...

Anyway, don't mean to offend anyone who prefers manuals. Cars are meant to please their owners, so whatever pleases you more is the better car for you, and no one can argue with that. Porsche should have offered a choice, if they could at all.

It's just that calling manual superior or people who drive manual now the only real drivers just gets old. And I'm one of those guys who dug their own water wells, forged cutlery, and made cheese and wine just because I like doing stuff myself, so I kind of get it. But shifting manual is just too simple and generic to be worth mentioning as a skill - even my grandma thinks so...

Petevb

It's certainly possible this weighed into their thinking Mike, though again it doesn't feel to me like it would have been be a deciding factor.

Re the single production run, I do know that developing a gearbox for a low volume run like the GT3, while I don't want to discount it, is perhaps not as big a deal as it seems. A friend of mine has developed two different gearboxes for the Porsche aftermarket, I indirectly know someone who under contract developed a GT3 racing gearbox solution for the factory, and of course there is the Ruf 5 speed. All of these made sense for volumes far lower than the hundreds Porsche would have expected to move even over a single production run. Yes, other changes to the car would need to be made as well, point acknowledged, but again Porsche has been happy to engineer whole models for production volumes like these before.

I also see a few hundred manual GT3s as having almost zero impact on CAFE when averaged against the tens of thousands of other cars Porsche sells- even 5 mpg lower than the PDK would reduce the corporate average but well less than .05 mpg.

So while I agree this issue belongs on the list, it doesn't quite get me to the point of understanding the decision.

I fully agree hybrids are coming, we are in the twilight years of the unassisted IC engine. It makes me thankful that Porsche invested to develop the new GT3 engine, but it saddens me that much more that they didn't offer it with a manual in what will surely be one of the last opportunities to fit one.

jumper5836

I don't think your getting the point. Those snide remarks aside, mainly we enjoy manuals because it feels like your one with the car. You have to think and evolve your self in it. It's doing what your make it do. You don't get that feeling in a automatic. I am a better driver when driving manual because my head is in the game when driving automatics I don't and I get distracted or I start multi tasking because it's boring.

neanicu

We've already passed the point you're suggesting on this forum. People who've joined in this interesting conversation are smart people that wouldn't call themselves " better drivers " just because they prefer a Manual transmission. It also has been established that people who prefer PDK do in fact know how to operate a clutch and have had Manual cars in the past.
The point you may have missed is that we're all car enthusiasts here,it's not about who's a better driver,it's about the driving experience as a package that we're after from a sports car. The majority of people are not racers,whether they're enjoying the car on a twisty mountain road or the track. And I believe all this passion and stubbornness of people that prefer a Manual comes from having experienced how well that whole package can work.
As a side note,there was a suggestion at some point that Manual advocates are not as passionate when it comes to choosing their SUVs or sedans and those choices are perfectly fine with an Automatic. I found that remark pretty funny in the whole context of understanding why we want a Manual GT3 and why we don't care what we're using to go to Walmart.

tmg57

Mike and Pete, you make some good points. My take is that Porsche, for the reasons you suggest among others, has anticipated the ultimate death of the MT. With the introduction of the GT3, they have a great opportunity to begin the move away from MT's entirely because:

1. The car performs better with PDK, and high performance is what the GT3 is about.

2. They expect it to sell out despite offering only one transmission.

Why offer the MT in the Carrera then?

1. The Carrera is not as strictly promoted as a high performance track machine.

2. The Carrera likely would not sell out without the manual option because the production is not so limited. The additional investment in MT development will generate additional sales.

From the passionate dissent on this forum, it appears that Porsche's anticipation of the MT's death may be premature. Maybe they know that and don't care, they may feel the need to begin the move sometime and are willing to face the music now. Who knows?

Further, I think that much of the passion is fueled by the fact that this is Porsche that is dropping the MT. It's Ok for Foo Foo Fezza, but real MT enthusiasts now worry that it's really the beginning of the Apocalypse.

ShakeNBake

I fixed it

Guest89

Or why not pay CAFE fines like other manufacturers? Why isn't Porsche protected under VW AG's umbrella? If Porsche is legitimately struggling to meet CAFE standards then things probably aren't so good for, say, Land Rover.

The discussion of "they sell every one they make" is a bit strange. It's easy to sell every example of everything a company makes given that they can control supply absolutely. In fact, think of a consumer durable good, and most of them get sold to someone somewhere at some price. When was the last time a major car manufacturer admitted "Aw, ****, guys. We messed up. We're gonna crush all these cars and start over." - ?

Maybe that will happen with the 918!