Uncooked Truth: A Sad State of Manual Transmission Affairs
09-05-2013, 04:43 PM
#361
Drifting
Lets do that drive. Let me know when you are ready.... i have heard stories about this silver 911 that roams the mtns at night, people I have talked to make it sound like this car/guy are legendary. Maybe we can catch this guy
09-05-2013, 05:38 PM
#362
Burning Brakes
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Understand your sentiment and share it at some level, but I think that would be a great pity.
This is a sea change for many enthusiasts, and while a few have gotten out of line in their posts (and maybe could be warned and have certain posts edited by moderators?), this has been a largely healthy discussion about cars that has been enlightening to me, at least. If Rennlist isn't for that, what's it for? We were told that PDK vs. manual was at the center of the most heated debates internally. So why is it any surprise that it would be here, as well? As long as people remain respectful, this is a very worthy topic—and the best thread on it I've seen to date.
The discussion also serves a critical purpose, for this community as well as Porsche. You can be sure some within PAG are watching, and this thread is unusual among the various forums in that noise to signal is pretty good on Rennlist. Most people posting are real customers, and more importantly ardent advocates of the brand. They are buying the cars, promoting them, instructing others on track in them, and very much part of the image that helps Porsche sell GT3s—as well as Carreras, Caymans, Cayennes, and Panameras. Some 997 GT3 owners who aren't posting have emailed and PM'd me to let me know they've moved on to other cars. They buy new cars, and they won't be Porsches anymore. That, to me, is sadder than any internet insults I've seen—for our hobby, and our community.
The latest turn in this thread is perhaps the most interesting to me. Are there shades of 928 here? Back in the late 1970s, the 911 was doomed because a legendary engineer—who brought the world the first Porsche "giant killers" as well as the four-cam fours—viewed the 928 as the only way forward given performance, emissions concerns, safety needs, etc. (sound familiar?). After Ferry gave him the boot came Peter Schutz. He found the employees of Porsche were dispirited by the imminent death of the 911, and that the majority of Porsche's customers wanted the 911 to live on, too. The funny, antiquated rear-engined car was the soul of the company, even if there was a technologically superior and more emissions and safety friendly successor. Many believe Schutz's move to save the slightly goofy but soulful Porsche saved the company.
Can the death of the manual transmission be compared to the death of the 911? Some would say no, of course not. After all, there's a perfectly good replacement—and it's superior! Others, however, seem to indicate this sea change might have the same result: The end of their long love affair with Porsche—and the GT3 is targeted exactly at those most likely to care. They can talk until they're blue in the face and still not "beat" those who don't agree with them, but they like what they like. The fact that many of them drive the car Schutz saved is perhaps telling in some way. Porsche needs to hear the comments here, and they're something they won't find in a focus group. From what I've seen, folks within PAG are both smart and passionate, and we've seen Porsche correct course in the past. The only trouble here is that the hard data it might require to justify course correction may not show up on any survey or in short-term sales numbers. This may well be a moment when Porsche needs a leader to make a gut call. As Schutz did.
And that's precisely why this thread is important....that leader just might be listening—or at least hear about it.
pete
This is a sea change for many enthusiasts, and while a few have gotten out of line in their posts (and maybe could be warned and have certain posts edited by moderators?), this has been a largely healthy discussion about cars that has been enlightening to me, at least. If Rennlist isn't for that, what's it for? We were told that PDK vs. manual was at the center of the most heated debates internally. So why is it any surprise that it would be here, as well? As long as people remain respectful, this is a very worthy topic—and the best thread on it I've seen to date.
The discussion also serves a critical purpose, for this community as well as Porsche. You can be sure some within PAG are watching, and this thread is unusual among the various forums in that noise to signal is pretty good on Rennlist. Most people posting are real customers, and more importantly ardent advocates of the brand. They are buying the cars, promoting them, instructing others on track in them, and very much part of the image that helps Porsche sell GT3s—as well as Carreras, Caymans, Cayennes, and Panameras. Some 997 GT3 owners who aren't posting have emailed and PM'd me to let me know they've moved on to other cars. They buy new cars, and they won't be Porsches anymore. That, to me, is sadder than any internet insults I've seen—for our hobby, and our community.
The latest turn in this thread is perhaps the most interesting to me. Are there shades of 928 here? Back in the late 1970s, the 911 was doomed because a legendary engineer—who brought the world the first Porsche "giant killers" as well as the four-cam fours—viewed the 928 as the only way forward given performance, emissions concerns, safety needs, etc. (sound familiar?). After Ferry gave him the boot came Peter Schutz. He found the employees of Porsche were dispirited by the imminent death of the 911, and that the majority of Porsche's customers wanted the 911 to live on, too. The funny, antiquated rear-engined car was the soul of the company, even if there was a technologically superior and more emissions and safety friendly successor. Many believe Schutz's move to save the slightly goofy but soulful Porsche saved the company.
Can the death of the manual transmission be compared to the death of the 911? Some would say no, of course not. After all, there's a perfectly good replacement—and it's superior! Others, however, seem to indicate this sea change might have the same result: The end of their long love affair with Porsche—and the GT3 is targeted exactly at those most likely to care. They can talk until they're blue in the face and still not "beat" those who don't agree with them, but they like what they like. The fact that many of them drive the car Schutz saved is perhaps telling in some way. Porsche needs to hear the comments here, and they're something they won't find in a focus group. From what I've seen, folks within PAG are both smart and passionate, and we've seen Porsche correct course in the past. The only trouble here is that the hard data it might require to justify course correction may not show up on any survey or in short-term sales numbers. This may well be a moment when Porsche needs a leader to make a gut call. As Schutz did.
And that's precisely why this thread is important....that leader just might be listening—or at least hear about it.
pete
thanks for these very good comments..this thread is now at its peak of the Pdk-vs manual. I always said that Im not against Pdk at all, I just think Porsche should offer a manual..and if its correct what someone posted here that manual sales are going up in the US...then Porsche must be completely stupid..sorry for my words (keeping in mind that 100% of the GT3s so far were manual).
Anyway, you can also add my name to the list of the people who will move on..but Im just going more into a race car direction anyway..GT3CUP or formula car. If there was a 960, 6 speed, 600HP, 2 Wheel drive...I would probably consider that ..but its Porsche´s choice. Fact is however, people will find alternatives..and Porsche should also not forget that GT3 customers are among the most loyal customers..loosing now GT3 customers who were among the first 996 Gt3 buyers and who were there for 15 years..well, the future will show it.
I heard/read here that you are also helping with the "Excellence Magazine". Its a magazine that I greatly enjoy...but lately..I was very close to cancelling my subscription. I would like to tell you why (if I may use this opportunity here), for me Porsche is more than just hot rodding "a la Singer" + testing new 997s or 991s. The latest edition however has turned around my opinion again. It was a very good piece of reading..I would welcome more visits to Porsche shops, more reports from owners..could be Porsche 968 or GT2 --whatever. Where Excellence really stands out is in the technical and historical articles. Im sorry for having hi-jacked the Pdk- manual thread for sweeping over to Excellence. You can always contact me if you would like more feedback
. I have written this already a few times to them..but never got a feedback.Thank you very much and keep the good writing going on..
09-05-2013, 05:44 PM
#363
Three Wheelin'
so Porsche should've just made you take your medicine slowly?
09-05-2013, 06:12 PM
#364
Drifting
Really? I had a student once shift from 5th straight into 2nd and let out the clutch at about 110mph on the back straight at VIR. That was fun. No sad ending other than bruised pride and instructor tachycardia.
Yup bruised ego that's it. Like i said not a safety thing.
AND improved performance based on the fact that the computer can threshold brake virtually perfectly every corner.
Not necessarily. The stock ABS system does not have REAL GT racing ABS smartness, lets not get carried away here.
I suspect we can thank the plantiff's bar for that lack of optionality. I learned how to track drive without ABS, but I honestly don't miss the few tires I did flatspot (back when kumho victoracers were like $150)
I learned to drive without ABS. Track without ABS. Drive in the snow, wet without ABS. I learned to lock up tires and manipulate the car to do what i want. Big deal. I miss locking them and reminding me how to finesse the brake pedal. Big deal. I get it. Safety on the street > over my stupidity.
so Porsche should've just made you take your medicine slowly?
Yes.
Yup bruised ego that's it. Like i said not a safety thing.
AND improved performance based on the fact that the computer can threshold brake virtually perfectly every corner.
Not necessarily. The stock ABS system does not have REAL GT racing ABS smartness, lets not get carried away here.
I suspect we can thank the plantiff's bar for that lack of optionality. I learned how to track drive without ABS, but I honestly don't miss the few tires I did flatspot (back when kumho victoracers were like $150)
I learned to drive without ABS. Track without ABS. Drive in the snow, wet without ABS. I learned to lock up tires and manipulate the car to do what i want. Big deal. I miss locking them and reminding me how to finesse the brake pedal. Big deal. I get it. Safety on the street > over my stupidity.
so Porsche should've just made you take your medicine slowly?
Yes.
09-05-2013, 06:36 PM
#365
Three Wheelin'
for all wheels (panic braking) the ABS system will
intervene." If I recall correctly, the system uses the onboard yaw sensors to anticipate potential lockup, it's not just reactive.
and PDK doesn't takeover all the shifting for you. You can put it in whatever gear you want and bang it off the rev-limiter all afternoon.
Let's get one thing real straight here: Porsche didn't "remove the control from you and replace it with a google prius computer", they just made the way you control the transmission more race track user friendly.
Nice job at non-name-calling though.
09-05-2013, 06:47 PM
#366
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
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ABS is irrelevant. This is not all or nothing. There are various flavors of what people prefer. And nothing wrong with wanting abs and a manual. No need to defend that nonsense. From any standpoint.
There are professional race cars with abs and using the flawed pdk logic , if its similar to race cars, meaning sequential, it must be better.
There are professional race cars with abs and using the flawed pdk logic , if its similar to race cars, meaning sequential, it must be better.
09-05-2013, 06:57 PM
#367
This happened to a buddy of mine in Japan. Watch from 8:00 to 8:20 minute mark if you don't want to watch the whole thing. Not sure this situation is possible with a PDK transmission.
Take care on the track people.
Take care on the track people.
09-05-2013, 07:07 PM
#368
This happened to a buddy of mine in Japan. Watch from 8:00 to 8:20 minute mark if you don't want to watch the whole thing. Not sure this situation is possible with a PDK transmission.
Take care on the track people.
http://youtu.be/Fn4MFIryiuM
Take care on the track people.
http://youtu.be/Fn4MFIryiuM
Your correct, can't do that with a PDK.
09-05-2013, 07:11 PM
#369
09-05-2013, 09:23 PM
#370
Nordschleife Master
ABS is irrelevant. This is not all or nothing. There are various flavors of what people prefer. And nothing wrong with wanting abs and a manual. No need to defend that nonsense. From any standpoint.
There are professional race cars with abs and using the flawed pdk logic , if its similar to race cars, meaning sequential, it must be better.
There are professional race cars with abs and using the flawed pdk logic , if its similar to race cars, meaning sequential, it must be better.
09-05-2013, 09:29 PM
#371
Race Director
09-06-2013, 12:12 AM
#374
Rennlist Member
PDK- Removes two out of five mechanical control inputs in a car.
ABS- There's still a brake pedal to modulate, feather, etc.
With PDK, the clutch pedal is gone, and the shift lever is replaced by buttons the driver can opt to use. Not saying it's a bad way to go (!), or that no other driving challenges remain (!!!), but let's face the fact that 40% of a driver's mechanical interface with the car is gone. PDK offers a driver no control of its clutches. While PDK-S provides a nifty clutch release trick if you're into drifting and burnouts, it's an on/off interface as far as driver input is concerned. Occasionally, I've seen PDK get tripped up by a real-world situation it couldn't anticipate and get a little jerky. Not bad, but not as smooth as a good, anticipatory driver would have been if he or she had a clutch pedal to modulate. Big deal? TEHO.
As for ABS, unless I am doing something wrong, it only enters the picture when I have misjudged my heavy braking. So it's a safety net that still leaves a driver to do the driving, and I'll take it right alongside PSM. I view these as fender-saving—and potentially life-saving—technologies that rarely make themselves known.
PDK fundamentally alters the total driving experience, all the time. Some like that, some don't—but it's not like ABS.
Last edited by stout; 09-06-2013 at 12:28 AM.