Panorama GT3 Review
08-22-2013, 08:09 AM
#91
...The only thing worse is watching enthusiasts who are getting what they want show so little concern for their fellow man/woman/enthusiast—or, worse, label them. For some, this is not a matter of progress, it is a matter of preference and what some perceive as interaction/involvement. I for one am thrilled that the GT3 is now available with PDK-S, because it improves performance and makes the GT3 experience available to more enthusiasts—and what's not to like about that? I suspect those open to PDK will LOVE this car. But I am saddened that Porsche has gone the way of Ferrari instead of offering its customers the choice that BMW—and...Cadillac!—does.
pete
pete
Don't know how to really drive
Am a "Cars and Coffee" poseur
Am a citizen of China or other emerging economy
Am "soft"
When I bought my last car 18 months ago, I had the choice and selected PDK. Despite the fact that I have been driving MT's since before most on this forum were born, I have not regretted the decision once. Having said that, I do not have any problem with anyone who is disappointed that they can't get a manual. I completely understand and sympathize. I would just ask that they say "I won't be buying a GT3 because I want an MT and I am saddened and upset that Porsche has made the decision they did". That's enough. No need to disparage others or be otherwise critical of a new car that they haven't even seen, much less driven.
08-22-2013, 09:07 AM
#92
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^ Mike, the issue is that some PDK advocates just can't relate to why some people prefer manual in a sports car which isn't intended to be raced. Due to the lack of understanding, such enthusiasts are characterized as luddites, etc. And there's understandably disappointment, even outrage, that Porsche decided not to even offer manual in their flagship sports car, while still offering it in other 991 variants, Boxster, and Cayman. That hits a nerve and can be perceived as a slap in the face (to mix metaphors). Regardless of your history with manual, you had already made a switch to PDK, but many are still manual guys.
08-22-2013, 09:27 AM
#94
Rennlist Member
"Mooty" is definitely not real, as evidenced by Frayed's query into how he can live in SF with all that hardware in another thread. 
As to this thread, perhaps most interesting to me is this: The story's extensive commentary about suspension, RWS, e-Diff, etc—all of which are amazing and "organic" in use—as well as the chassis' significant advancements over the 997-2 GT3 have been completely obscured by a discussion that's already been beaten to death. While the story did indeed raise this sea-changing issue—which is critical to some customers—I suspect the lines of text devoted to PDK-S pale in number against those devoted to the rest of the new GT3. That said, I didn't count them.
To me, it's a pity to see a car so great obscured by a fixation on one element—and all the more because it didn't have to be this way. Years ago, GM told its customers it knew what they wanted better than they did. At some level, I think that was the beginning of its fall. You didn't see it on the balance sheets, at least not initially, but...
The only thing worse is watching enthusiasts who are getting what they want show so little concern for their fellow man/woman/enthusiast—or, worse, label them. For some, this is not a matter of progress, it is a matter of preference and what some perceive as interaction/involvement. I for one am thrilled that the GT3 is now available with PDK-S, because it improves performance and makes the GT3 experience available to more enthusiasts—and what's not to like about that? I suspect those open to PDK will LOVE this car. But I am saddened that Porsche has gone the way of Ferrari instead of offering its customers the choice that BMW—and...Cadillac!—does.
pete
As to this thread, perhaps most interesting to me is this: The story's extensive commentary about suspension, RWS, e-Diff, etc—all of which are amazing and "organic" in use—as well as the chassis' significant advancements over the 997-2 GT3 have been completely obscured by a discussion that's already been beaten to death. While the story did indeed raise this sea-changing issue—which is critical to some customers—I suspect the lines of text devoted to PDK-S pale in number against those devoted to the rest of the new GT3. That said, I didn't count them.
To me, it's a pity to see a car so great obscured by a fixation on one element—and all the more because it didn't have to be this way. Years ago, GM told its customers it knew what they wanted better than they did. At some level, I think that was the beginning of its fall. You didn't see it on the balance sheets, at least not initially, but...
The only thing worse is watching enthusiasts who are getting what they want show so little concern for their fellow man/woman/enthusiast—or, worse, label them. For some, this is not a matter of progress, it is a matter of preference and what some perceive as interaction/involvement. I for one am thrilled that the GT3 is now available with PDK-S, because it improves performance and makes the GT3 experience available to more enthusiasts—and what's not to like about that? I suspect those open to PDK will LOVE this car. But I am saddened that Porsche has gone the way of Ferrari instead of offering its customers the choice that BMW—and...Cadillac!—does.
pete
08-22-2013, 09:29 AM
#95
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08-22-2013, 09:47 AM
#97
Nordschleife Master
Porsche payed big bucks to do a market study before they've dropped the manual,I'm sure! Problem is,they didn't go to PCA meetings,DE events and such or concentrate on enthusiasts who've been their loyal customers since the 70s,the high booming markets like China dictated the trend. It's all about profit and with that in mind is hard to blame Porsche for their decision.
Personally,I'm not a fan of where today's auto industry is heading and Porsche is no exception. I predict even more outrageous decisions coming in the future.
What's more unfortunate is that on an enthusiast forum some decide it is a good practice to apply the method of " fist in mouth " to those that have different opinions than them. Just because you've embraced the " future " does not mean you are more open minded but just perhaps your priorities of sports car driving are different. Bear in mind you haven't driven the new car either,you've just made the decision to commit and I think not one sane detractor here would tell you that is the wrong thing to do and what you should do with your money,but until GOD HIMSELF makes a car,the rest will be subjected to criticism.
Personally,I'm not a fan of where today's auto industry is heading and Porsche is no exception. I predict even more outrageous decisions coming in the future.
What's more unfortunate is that on an enthusiast forum some decide it is a good practice to apply the method of " fist in mouth " to those that have different opinions than them. Just because you've embraced the " future " does not mean you are more open minded but just perhaps your priorities of sports car driving are different. Bear in mind you haven't driven the new car either,you've just made the decision to commit and I think not one sane detractor here would tell you that is the wrong thing to do and what you should do with your money,but until GOD HIMSELF makes a car,the rest will be subjected to criticism.
08-22-2013, 10:45 AM
#98
Burning Brakes
I have been a manual guy all my life and this will be my first auto-manual and GT3. Based on the character of this new GT3 engine, I believe that the PDK-S is the best choice to get the maximum benefit from it.
Having said that, I truly feel for those wanting a manual and am very curious to see how I adapt to the PDK-S in daily driving.
With every new edition of most cars, something is lost but from what we've read and heard to date, it appears that the grains outweigh the lost and most will adapt and go on to enjoy this car.
Having said that, I truly feel for those wanting a manual and am very curious to see how I adapt to the PDK-S in daily driving.
With every new edition of most cars, something is lost but from what we've read and heard to date, it appears that the grains outweigh the lost and most will adapt and go on to enjoy this car.
08-22-2013, 01:12 PM
#100
Hahaha... reports are that both were in Monterey last week but never spotted at the same event. There is a story that there were two guys at different times at Porsche Zentrum looking at the (beautiful) white GT3 yelling "but it's supposed to be red!"
08-22-2013, 01:18 PM
#101
Rennlist Member
Very well put. Unfortunately, the rhetoric on both sides of the MT/PDK has gotten unnecessarily heated. As you stated, the PDK contingent has done some "labeling" but the other side has not exactly kept their powder dry. Although I have not participated in the debate, I do get a little offended when someone implies that because I drive a PDK I likely:
Don't know how to really drive
Am a "Cars and Coffee" poseur
Am a citizen of China or other emerging economy
Am "soft"
When I bought my last car 18 months ago, I had the choice and selected PDK. Despite the fact that I have been driving MT's since before most on this forum were born, I have not regretted the decision once. Having said that, I do not have any problem with anyone who is disappointed that they can't get a manual. I completely understand and sympathize. I would just ask that they say "I won't be buying a GT3 because I want an MT and I am saddened and upset that Porsche has made the decision they did". That's enough. No need to disparage others or be otherwise critical of a new car that they haven't even seen, much less driven.
Don't know how to really drive
Am a "Cars and Coffee" poseur
Am a citizen of China or other emerging economy
Am "soft"
When I bought my last car 18 months ago, I had the choice and selected PDK. Despite the fact that I have been driving MT's since before most on this forum were born, I have not regretted the decision once. Having said that, I do not have any problem with anyone who is disappointed that they can't get a manual. I completely understand and sympathize. I would just ask that they say "I won't be buying a GT3 because I want an MT and I am saddened and upset that Porsche has made the decision they did". That's enough. No need to disparage others or be otherwise critical of a new car that they haven't even seen, much less driven.
08-22-2013, 01:40 PM
#102
Race Car
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agreed with you tmg. I've never have attended a c n c event, all my sports cars have been MT and I've tracked them all, i've only been to china once, and have gotten rid of my gut.
the haters need better material.
the haters need better material.
08-22-2013, 03:40 PM
#103
Race Director
^ Mike, the issue is that some PDK advocates just can't relate to why some people prefer manual in a sports car which isn't intended to be raced. Due to the lack of understanding, such enthusiasts are characterized as luddites, etc. And there's understandably disappointment, even outrage, that Porsche decided not to even offer manual in their flagship sports car, while still offering it in other 991 variants, Boxster, and Cayman. That hits a nerve and can be perceived as a slap in the face (to mix metaphors). Regardless of your history with manual, you had already made a switch to PDK, but many are still manual guys.
I'm also a long time manual driver (40 years) who made the switch to PDK with my 997.2 S so manifold's post was appropriate to both of us.manifold, as I've said many times, despite the fact that I'm fully comfortable with PDK-S in the GT3, I completely understand why some MT drivers are still hesitant. I've never put down anyone as a luddite, or made any other negative comment about anyone just for preferring a MT.
My posts about PDK vs MT have always revolved around two areas. First, there are the issues that tmg57 brought up; the negative assumptions about people who appreciate PDK which, BTW, began long before I ever saw any references to MT drivers as luddites. Those put-downs have been around since the introduction of PDK in 2009.
The second has been a suggestion that before condemning all DCT's as soulless, uninvolving, and no fun to drive we should wait for reviews and personal experience with this DCT in this car before writing off the concept as a failure. The reviews we're now seeing are skewing strongly in the positive direction, with a few caveats, and personal experience is still to come so even now the jury is still out, although it's looking pretty good.
Will some remain unconvinced? No doubt. Should they be considered luddites and will I ever call anyone that? Absolutely not.
