Road and Track first drive: 991 GT3
05-01-2013, 08:24 PM
#121
Rennlist Member
But again, many of us (whether we currently own a GT3 or not) viewed/view the GT3 as probably THE most involving, awesome sports car/quasi watered down race car there ever has been. A lot of that comes (IMHO) from the high skill levels needed to drive one well...and this includes the beauty of perfect 3-pedal heel & toe downshifts. I recognize that others don't share this love of perfecting this skill, which is why I truly wish Porsche was offering a choice.
05-01-2013, 08:36 PM
#122
Addict
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A couple of weeks ago, I drove a 2008 GT3 RS that is pretty well setup for track-day use. I was driving my Fiat as well. The GT3 felt a little disconnected and numb compared to the Fiat, the Fiat felt sharp and alive. This is the reason I chose the Fiat over the 997 GT2, and canceled the 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 order (plus other things like PCNA arrogance, PCNA lack of support, warranty hassles). I like fun cars, light, with high rev engines. Also the reason why after having driven 3 458 Italias, I cannot make the jump to the 458.
4 years later, we have Andreas Preuninger converted to marketing. Good for him and job stability, but the arrogance to mandate what customers wants is not right.
Yes, the 991 GT3 will sell better, because it now brings an auto-box to the car, so market is drastically larger.
However, I have driven all these DCT and they are all tame, they cause the car to lose the mechanical interaction with the driver (458, MP4-12C, M3, Cayman, Boxster, 991, 997, Golf, and other I have tried at track, autoX and street). Yes, they are fast, but tame too.
This 991 GT3 is losing connectivity to the driver in the following ends:
- Steering. Even the 991 GT3 version of the steering has been documented to lack the 997 GT3 response and feedback, and my experience is that my Cayman and previous Boxsters have better steering than my former 996 and 997RS GT3s.
- Gas pedal (drive a PDK and experience the gap between input to pedal and car reaction), especially on quick transitions.
- Sofa Seats isolate the driver even more.
- Whatever the RWS causes on driving dynamics at the limit of adhesion (if RWS was any good, why is VW not racing on this?)
- Added weight
- Not interacting with a shifter and a clutch pedal
It will be faster than the 997.2 GT3, but so is the Nissan GTR, and a few of us that have driven or owned the Nissan still prefer the 997.2 GT3 by a nautical mile, because a 997.2 GT3 is more rewarding to drive.
I said that the press release on the 991 GT3 was going to help resale on the 997.2 GT3 by $10k, $25k on the 3.8RS, and $50k on the 4.0RS. Rather than the usual depreciation on the previous model when a new GT3 is announced, we are seeing appreciation. Clean 4.0RS are moving in the $240k-$270k range, the GT2 RS went up, clean 3.8RS and low miles are in the $135k-$155k range.
I think the 991 Wannabe-GT3 is overpriced, this used to be a $100k car, now it sits almost 40% more expensive than a few years ago. This is not good for VW, as they are dangerously positioning themselves far away from the competitors. The 450Hp, 7-speed manual, race seats equipped C7-Z51 MSRP is near 1/3 the price of this new 991. Things are looking overpriced on the VW end.
I don't think resale on this new 991 is going to be as good as the 997 version. Resale on the 991 is already really bad. When it is cheaper to own a 430 Scuderia than a 991, you can better understand how expensive it is becoming to own a 991.
Faster is not better. Otherwise, we would be all driving Godzilla.
4 years later, we have Andreas Preuninger converted to marketing. Good for him and job stability, but the arrogance to mandate what customers wants is not right.
Yes, the 991 GT3 will sell better, because it now brings an auto-box to the car, so market is drastically larger.
However, I have driven all these DCT and they are all tame, they cause the car to lose the mechanical interaction with the driver (458, MP4-12C, M3, Cayman, Boxster, 991, 997, Golf, and other I have tried at track, autoX and street). Yes, they are fast, but tame too.
This 991 GT3 is losing connectivity to the driver in the following ends:
- Steering. Even the 991 GT3 version of the steering has been documented to lack the 997 GT3 response and feedback, and my experience is that my Cayman and previous Boxsters have better steering than my former 996 and 997RS GT3s.
- Gas pedal (drive a PDK and experience the gap between input to pedal and car reaction), especially on quick transitions.
- Sofa Seats isolate the driver even more.
- Whatever the RWS causes on driving dynamics at the limit of adhesion (if RWS was any good, why is VW not racing on this?)
- Added weight
- Not interacting with a shifter and a clutch pedal
It will be faster than the 997.2 GT3, but so is the Nissan GTR, and a few of us that have driven or owned the Nissan still prefer the 997.2 GT3 by a nautical mile, because a 997.2 GT3 is more rewarding to drive.
I said that the press release on the 991 GT3 was going to help resale on the 997.2 GT3 by $10k, $25k on the 3.8RS, and $50k on the 4.0RS. Rather than the usual depreciation on the previous model when a new GT3 is announced, we are seeing appreciation. Clean 4.0RS are moving in the $240k-$270k range, the GT2 RS went up, clean 3.8RS and low miles are in the $135k-$155k range.
I think the 991 Wannabe-GT3 is overpriced, this used to be a $100k car, now it sits almost 40% more expensive than a few years ago. This is not good for VW, as they are dangerously positioning themselves far away from the competitors. The 450Hp, 7-speed manual, race seats equipped C7-Z51 MSRP is near 1/3 the price of this new 991. Things are looking overpriced on the VW end.
I don't think resale on this new 991 is going to be as good as the 997 version. Resale on the 991 is already really bad. When it is cheaper to own a 430 Scuderia than a 991, you can better understand how expensive it is becoming to own a 991.
Faster is not better. Otherwise, we would be all driving Godzilla.
05-01-2013, 08:56 PM
#123
Race Director
Fair enough. I have never autocrossed, so have no perspective. I agree that it will be easier to go fast with the granny paddles. But again, many of us (whether we currently own a GT3 or not) viewed/view the GT3 as probably THE most involving, awesome sports car/quasi watered down race car there ever has been. A lot of that comes (IMHO) from the high skill levels needed to drive one well...and this includes the beauty of perfect 3-pedal heel & toe downshifts. I recognize that others don't share this love of perfecting this skill, which is why I truly wish Porsche was offering a choice.
Again, I hear ya, though.
Again, I hear ya, though.
I learned over the years how to execute a perfect 3 pedal HT downshift, (with some exceptions), so like you I have an appreciation for mastering this skill. But I also like the idea of seeing what modern technology, functionally similar to what every modern racing series uses (I don't count NASCAR), brings to the experience. If it turns out to be an unexpected flop, I'll sell the car and move on to something different. There are lots of choices out there, including 60 years of older Porsches and over a decade's worth of GT3's, so no reason to constantly lament the fact that a current one doesn't quite fit the bill. Maybe something with carbs and ignition I can constantly fiddle with, no ABS, no power steering or brakes, relatively skinny tires etc. etc.; or even swing axles!
05-01-2013, 08:58 PM
#124
Pro
Don't intend to start an argument here, but from my personal experience with several different Ferraris (Maranello, 360, 430) there is NO WAY the ownership costs of a Ferrari are less than that of a Porsche.
I could only describe the servicing costs of Ferraris (again, only from personal experience) as insane. Porsche servicing costs are expensive, but not insane.
I could only describe the servicing costs of Ferraris (again, only from personal experience) as insane. Porsche servicing costs are expensive, but not insane.
05-01-2013, 09:00 PM
#125
05-01-2013, 09:33 PM
#126
Race Director
The issue brought up here of "mandating what the customer wants" as opposed to "giving the customer what they want" is interesting. My understanding is that in the European market buyers of high end sports cars overwhelmingly demand automanuals, to the point where demand for MT's is near zero. In the US, the percentage of those buying manuals is higher but has still been declining steadily.
The often repeated response to this is that the cars have gotten so expensive and have brought so many "bling" buyers into the market, that the statistics are being skewed as real MT "purists" are squeezed out of the market or make other choices. Fine. But whether true or not, the point is that Porsche and other European manufacturers ARE giving customers in general the car they want. It just may not be the car that YOU want.
Without being judgemental or getting into the argument (again) about whether Porsche should be offering a choice, I'm just saying that "mandating what the customer wants" is not what Porsche is doing; in fact, faced with certain knowledge of what the vast majority of their customers are requesting, the opposite is happening. I understand, that's hard for some to swallow.
The often repeated response to this is that the cars have gotten so expensive and have brought so many "bling" buyers into the market, that the statistics are being skewed as real MT "purists" are squeezed out of the market or make other choices. Fine. But whether true or not, the point is that Porsche and other European manufacturers ARE giving customers in general the car they want. It just may not be the car that YOU want.
Without being judgemental or getting into the argument (again) about whether Porsche should be offering a choice, I'm just saying that "mandating what the customer wants" is not what Porsche is doing; in fact, faced with certain knowledge of what the vast majority of their customers are requesting, the opposite is happening. I understand, that's hard for some to swallow.
05-02-2013, 12:06 AM
#128
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It's not that hard to drive a manual. Takes practice, but is it really all that hard, no. So the solution to a not so hard problem for the masses is an auto shift transmission. The auto shift transmission is designed for comfort. So when does a comfort option become a performance option ... when it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
05-02-2013, 12:13 AM
#129
Three Wheelin'
The issue brought up here of "mandating what the customer wants" as opposed to "giving the customer what they want" is interesting. My understanding is that in the European market buyers of high end sports cars overwhelmingly demand automanuals, to the point where demand for MT's is near zero. In the US, the percentage of those buying manuals is higher but has still been declining steadily.
The often repeated response to this is that the cars have gotten so expensive and have brought so many "bling" buyers into the market, that the statistics are being skewed as real MT "purists" are squeezed out of the market or make other choices. Fine. But whether true or not, the point is that Porsche and other European manufacturers ARE giving customers in general the car they want. It just may not be the car that YOU want.
Without being judgemental or getting into the argument (again) about whether Porsche should be offering a choice, I'm just saying that "mandating what the customer wants" is not what Porsche is doing; in fact, faced with certain knowledge of what the vast majority of their customers are requesting, the opposite is happening. I understand, that's hard for some to swallow.
The often repeated response to this is that the cars have gotten so expensive and have brought so many "bling" buyers into the market, that the statistics are being skewed as real MT "purists" are squeezed out of the market or make other choices. Fine. But whether true or not, the point is that Porsche and other European manufacturers ARE giving customers in general the car they want. It just may not be the car that YOU want.
Without being judgemental or getting into the argument (again) about whether Porsche should be offering a choice, I'm just saying that "mandating what the customer wants" is not what Porsche is doing; in fact, faced with certain knowledge of what the vast majority of their customers are requesting, the opposite is happening. I understand, that's hard for some to swallow.
Those Panameras and Cayennes heavily skew the numbers, especailly since the US gets little or no choice with them.
05-02-2013, 03:31 AM
#130
Rennlist Member
^^This! I was within a day of buying a 2012 GT-R. I'd rented one and loved it on the street and in the mountains. Then I rented one on track. It was so boring and uninvolved that I changed my focus immediately back to the GT3. Very glad I did. For the first time in 10 years of automotive A.D.D, I'm still in love with this car and don't want to sell it.
I'm sure for the market, people like me are the anomaly. But for those of us who love to drive our cars, we prize feel and feedback above all else. The 991 GT3 will be a fantastic car I'm sure. I just won't be looking to buy one. Well, maybe when they take a huge depreciation hit and I can afford one as a DD
I'm sure for the market, people like me are the anomaly. But for those of us who love to drive our cars, we prize feel and feedback above all else. The 991 GT3 will be a fantastic car I'm sure. I just won't be looking to buy one. Well, maybe when they take a huge depreciation hit and I can afford one as a DD
05-02-2013, 05:27 AM
#131
Rennlist Member
The issue brought up here of "mandating what the customer wants" as opposed to "giving the customer what they want" is interesting. My understanding is that in the European market buyers of high end sports cars overwhelmingly demand automanuals, to the point where demand for MT's is near zero. In the US, the percentage of those buying manuals is higher but has still been declining steadily.
...the point is that Porsche and other European manufacturers ARE giving customers in general the car they want. It just may not be the car that YOU want.
Without being judgemental or getting into the argument (again) about whether Porsche should be offering a choice, I'm just saying that "mandating what the customer wants" is not what Porsche is doing; in fact, faced with certain knowledge of what the vast majority of their customers are requesting, the opposite is happening. I understand, that's hard for some to swallow.
...the point is that Porsche and other European manufacturers ARE giving customers in general the car they want. It just may not be the car that YOU want.
Without being judgemental or getting into the argument (again) about whether Porsche should be offering a choice, I'm just saying that "mandating what the customer wants" is not what Porsche is doing; in fact, faced with certain knowledge of what the vast majority of their customers are requesting, the opposite is happening. I understand, that's hard for some to swallow.
Personally, I get bored with automatics, so I am voting with my wallet and getting something other than a new Porsche this year.
05-02-2013, 08:12 AM
#132
I think they miscalculated.
05-02-2013, 08:22 AM
#133
Rennlist Member
Its natural you should lament the passing of the manual gearbox. We all did the same with the air cooled engine (some of us have stayed with it).
Why is everyone acting surprised. The writing was on the wall when they launched the 7 speed manual in the same transfer case as the PDK. It was a half assed attempt and probably the worst manual box they have come up with to date.
The new 991TT is announced PDK only (we predicted this months ago on this board) the new GT2 will be PDK, the GT3 is PDK-S and the GT3RS will almost certainly be also.
I dont think we can change progress but if anyone can do it the Amercian market can (just look at the last two generations of M5 offered manual in US market only). The simple fact is that from here on in if they do a manual it probably wont be much cop. Their product plan doesnt focus resources on developing a manual any further.
Like the passing of aircooled we will lament for a while. Eventually we will get on board I have no doubt...and some are even savouring it!
Why is everyone acting surprised. The writing was on the wall when they launched the 7 speed manual in the same transfer case as the PDK. It was a half assed attempt and probably the worst manual box they have come up with to date.
The new 991TT is announced PDK only (we predicted this months ago on this board) the new GT2 will be PDK, the GT3 is PDK-S and the GT3RS will almost certainly be also.
I dont think we can change progress but if anyone can do it the Amercian market can (just look at the last two generations of M5 offered manual in US market only). The simple fact is that from here on in if they do a manual it probably wont be much cop. Their product plan doesnt focus resources on developing a manual any further.
Like the passing of aircooled we will lament for a while. Eventually we will get on board I have no doubt...and some are even savouring it!
05-02-2013, 08:28 AM
#134
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I suspect that another reason they didn't offer manual is that the torque curve really favors high revs, and it's more work to keep the revs up with manual. The current generation of M3 is similar, to the extent that it feels weak on the street with manual, but peppy with DCT (especially with the more aggressive settings).
05-02-2013, 09:46 AM
#135
Nordschleife Master
I'm looking forward to AP's statement in 10 years(if he'll still be with Porsche) for the launch of the exquisite 992 GT3 :
'' The Mezger and DFI engines are for grandmas,the torquey electric motor is the future for the new generation of baby boomers ''.
'' PDK-S is in the past,it is too slow and not involving enough,the new retina controlled transmission shifts literally at the blink of an eye. A center console sensor is reading your eye movement and shifts accordingly ''.
'' Need to relax on the way to the track or going home? The new 992 GT3 has a computer programmed destination input. Set your destination,lay back and enjoy!
Want to do 5 minutes at the Ring? Just select Nürburgring Super Fast Map and the car will take you around the track faster than you've ever been before! ''.
Responding to criticism from Auto journalists,AP's new statement will be '' Shut up and let the car drive you around! ''
'' The Mezger and DFI engines are for grandmas,the torquey electric motor is the future for the new generation of baby boomers ''.
'' PDK-S is in the past,it is too slow and not involving enough,the new retina controlled transmission shifts literally at the blink of an eye. A center console sensor is reading your eye movement and shifts accordingly ''.
'' Need to relax on the way to the track or going home? The new 992 GT3 has a computer programmed destination input. Set your destination,lay back and enjoy!
Want to do 5 minutes at the Ring? Just select Nürburgring Super Fast Map and the car will take you around the track faster than you've ever been before! ''.
Responding to criticism from Auto journalists,AP's new statement will be '' Shut up and let the car drive you around! ''
Last edited by neanicu; 05-02-2013 at 10:17 AM.