Road and Track first drive: 991 GT3
05-01-2013, 01:22 PM
#106
Rennlist Member
Try answering the question. What difference does it make if the new car is faster?
05-01-2013, 01:43 PM
#107
Race Director
Mike, I am not sure anyone here has advocated that having a "slower" performance car is better. The thing is, IMO, and based on a lot of experience with a lot of drivers in a lot of cars, I seriously doubt 99.5% of folks here or in the larger GT3 buyer universe will be able to tell whether the new car is slower or faster thhan its predecessor. So very few are even close to using the performance envelope of GT3, whether on track or street, that the benefits of something like PDK will be literally invisible. Yes, the cars will be MUCH easier to use in ruush hour traffic. But beyond that, Porsche claims 1/2 car length per shift? That is a metric--whether true or BS--that takes a pro driver and a lot of specialized mesurement gear to even ascertain. Again IMHO, this will be imperceptible to the buyer.
As you correctly point out, 99.5% of us won't come close to testing the capabilities of a GT3, whether with a MT or PDK. I certainly won't. All the more reason, perhaps, why PDK may make it easier to concentrate on, learn, and eventually even exploit some of the other aspects of a GT3's performance envelope and in the process become a better driver overall. Rather than being something that an amateur or novice will never notice, PDK can help expand the experience. And that, whether there's a clutch pedal involved or not, is fun.
Just a different perspective......
05-01-2013, 02:42 PM
#108
Speed isn't absolutely everything. If it were - we'd all be driving Vipers or ZR1's and using our savings for hookers and blow.
05-01-2013, 02:50 PM
#109
Race Director
Which is the opposite of the 997 GT3, by the way. The 997 GT3 shares the entire street Carrera suspension with a couple rubber bushings replaced with aluminum. While the 997 GT3 Cup uses totally different uprights, etc. If they've gone to the trouble of replacing the suspension components on the 991 GT3 that seems a good sign?
05-01-2013, 02:56 PM
#110
Nordschleife Master
Since we're all guessing here,my guess is that the 991 GT3 will be a great fun car,plenty involving! I have zero concerns about nannies,electric steering,CLs or RWS.
Let's be positive about it...
PDK will undoubtedly be good,fun and fast...
It will sound incredible stock,let alone when you'll start modding the exhaust!
The improved versatility will attract a lot of new customers,which is Porsche's goal,because they're in to make money...
They will connect this new car somehow to Cup cars,at least for marketing purposes if not anything else...
Buckets will be offered at some point.
How reliable the whole package will be when driven hard on a track brings the big question mark right now...we shall see...
Personally,looking to upgrade to a 991 makes me think I can have a GT3 for 10-15K more than a Carrera S,a lot more power,more usability for NYC death trap roads,driveways etc,but I'm not ready for an automatic transmission,not yet anyway...too bad...this could've been great!
I know AP's pretty tense right now,his new baby will go in front of the panel soon...he DOES NOT want to fail this one!
Let's wish him Good Luck...and for those that ordered...I really hope you'll be getting a great car...your reviews will probably determine many of us to upgrade.
Now where did I put that bottle of Kool-Aid...?
Let's be positive about it...
PDK will undoubtedly be good,fun and fast...
It will sound incredible stock,let alone when you'll start modding the exhaust!
The improved versatility will attract a lot of new customers,which is Porsche's goal,because they're in to make money...
They will connect this new car somehow to Cup cars,at least for marketing purposes if not anything else...
Buckets will be offered at some point.
How reliable the whole package will be when driven hard on a track brings the big question mark right now...we shall see...
Personally,looking to upgrade to a 991 makes me think I can have a GT3 for 10-15K more than a Carrera S,a lot more power,more usability for NYC death trap roads,driveways etc,but I'm not ready for an automatic transmission,not yet anyway...too bad...this could've been great!
I know AP's pretty tense right now,his new baby will go in front of the panel soon...he DOES NOT want to fail this one!
Let's wish him Good Luck...and for those that ordered...I really hope you'll be getting a great car...your reviews will probably determine many of us to upgrade.
Now where did I put that bottle of Kool-Aid...?
05-01-2013, 03:18 PM
#111
Rear upright, same part number: 997 331 111 07 Rear wishbones are same PN. Rear LCA, dogbones, etc, etc, all the same thing. In the rear the GT3 got an aluminum subframe mounting bushing instead of rubber, that's it.
Up front I'll give you the ability to adjust camber with the shimable LCA and an upright that moves the RCH back to where it should be for the lower ride height and gives it the same suspension patterns as the 997S, but that's about it. When you get down to it the changes between the 997S and GT3 are ridiculously small. The GT3 didn't even get stiffer bushings on the dogbones, which seems the first thing you'd do.
05-01-2013, 03:29 PM
#112
Race Car
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I think the former though. I loved both of those cars, and in fact in some ways I missed the 997S more (was a better street car IMO).
05-01-2013, 04:33 PM
#113
Rennlist Member
Which is the opposite of the 997 GT3, by the way. The 997 GT3 shares the entire street Carrera suspension with a couple rubber bushings replaced with aluminum. While the 997 GT3 Cup uses totally different uprights, etc. If they've gone to the trouble of replacing the suspension components on the 991 GT3 that seems a good sign?
Coilovers, swaybars, shocks obviously. But check the PET, part numbers for nearly everything are the same:
Rear upright, same part number: 997 331 111 07 Rear wishbones are same PN. Rear LCA, dogbones, etc, etc, all the same thing. In the rear the GT3 got an aluminum subframe mounting bushing instead of rubber, that's it.
Up front I'll give you the ability to adjust camber with the shimable LCA and an upright that moves the RCH back to where it should be for the lower ride height and gives it the same suspension patterns as the 997S, but that's about it. When you get down to it the changes between the 997S and GT3 are ridiculously small. The GT3 didn't even get stiffer bushings on the dogbones, which seems the first thing you'd do.
Rear upright, same part number: 997 331 111 07 Rear wishbones are same PN. Rear LCA, dogbones, etc, etc, all the same thing. In the rear the GT3 got an aluminum subframe mounting bushing instead of rubber, that's it.
Up front I'll give you the ability to adjust camber with the shimable LCA and an upright that moves the RCH back to where it should be for the lower ride height and gives it the same suspension patterns as the 997S, but that's about it. When you get down to it the changes between the 997S and GT3 are ridiculously small. The GT3 didn't even get stiffer bushings on the dogbones, which seems the first thing you'd do.
05-01-2013, 04:47 PM
#114
05-01-2013, 05:23 PM
#115
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A lot of this seems to boil down to intangible/emotional factors related to Porsche's unique heritage among sports cars and their connections with racing. We understandably lust for a GT3 that has a 'real' connection with their heritage and especially their race cars, and feel betrayed if they decide to stop producing that and instead cater to the preferences of the broader market which doesn't have that perspective.
But looking at the actual use of the car, it's not a race car and not intended to be. It can surely be used as an (overly) fast street car which rivals the performance of exotics like Ferrari et al for a comparatively bargain price. And hopefully it can also be used as primarily a fun DE/open track car which is also streetable, so no mandatory trailing, etc.
In those contexts, the choice of manual vs PDK is subjective and it doesn't matter much which is faster since, as noted, few drivers will be capable of routinely driving it above 9/10ths anyway. Lack of proper track seats is a bigger issue, and IMO they totally dropped the ball in not having them available for the first production cars.
But looking at the actual use of the car, it's not a race car and not intended to be. It can surely be used as an (overly) fast street car which rivals the performance of exotics like Ferrari et al for a comparatively bargain price. And hopefully it can also be used as primarily a fun DE/open track car which is also streetable, so no mandatory trailing, etc.
In those contexts, the choice of manual vs PDK is subjective and it doesn't matter much which is faster since, as noted, few drivers will be capable of routinely driving it above 9/10ths anyway. Lack of proper track seats is a bigger issue, and IMO they totally dropped the ball in not having them available for the first production cars.
05-01-2013, 05:33 PM
#116
Team Owner
Now...for the Cup, RSR, GT3R, etc, no question, granny paddles are faster. That is what RACING is. But for a street car that is occasiionally DE'd? I really, sincerely doubt more than 4 or 5 folks here could tell. It'll be easier, that is for sure.
VR, that's a fair assessment and you make good points. I disagree, though, about the benefits of PDK being literally invisible. As an autocrosser, I'm convinced that PDK is an advantage. I have a friend with a 997.2 S pretty much identical to mine, except for transmission. We've both driven MT's for years, had a lot of autox experience and have both attended multiple professional driving schools, but we're not racers by any stretch of the imagination. When we've swapped cars at events each of us is slower in the manual car and faster with PDK. I don't claim that this is definitive, but from my POV it's an indicator that you don't need to be a pro to appreciate the benefits of PDK.
As you correctly point out, 99.5% of us won't come close to testing the capabilities of a GT3, whether with a MT or PDK. I certainly won't. All the more reason, perhaps, why PDK may make it easier to concentrate on, learn, and eventually even exploit some of the other aspects of a GT3's performance envelope and in the process become a better driver overall. Rather than being something that an amateur or novice will never notice, PDK can help expand the experience. And that, whether there's a clutch pedal involved or not, is fun.
Just a different perspective......
As you correctly point out, 99.5% of us won't come close to testing the capabilities of a GT3, whether with a MT or PDK. I certainly won't. All the more reason, perhaps, why PDK may make it easier to concentrate on, learn, and eventually even exploit some of the other aspects of a GT3's performance envelope and in the process become a better driver overall. Rather than being something that an amateur or novice will never notice, PDK can help expand the experience. And that, whether there's a clutch pedal involved or not, is fun.
Just a different perspective......
Again, I hear ya, though.
05-01-2013, 06:10 PM
#117
Three Wheelin'
Call me a skeptic, but I'd wait until you have the 991 PETs for both those cars, too, to get the apples to apples comparison.
I really hope they don't share much.
05-01-2013, 06:32 PM
#118
Rennlist Member
If Porsche is offering manual with other 911 models and not the GT3 and 991TT what is their reason? Years ago when the issue came up with Ferrari, they basically said the performance parameters of the car could not get near its capability with manual. The F1 transmission was able to. Obviously their concern was to build a car equipped to maximize the cars performance. It would be like putting inferior tires on the car thereby substantially compromising its performance.
05-01-2013, 06:39 PM
#119
A lot of this seems to boil down to intangible/emotional factors related to Porsche's unique heritage among sports cars and their connections with racing. We understandably lust for a GT3 that has a 'real' connection with their heritage and especially their race cars, and feel betrayed if they decide to stop producing that and instead cater to the preferences of the broader market which doesn't have that perspective.
But looking at the actual use of the car, it's not a race car and not intended to be. It can surely be used as an (overly) fast street car which rivals the performance of exotics like Ferrari et al for a comparatively bargain price. And hopefully it can also be used as primarily a fun DE/open track car which is also streetable, so no mandatory trailing, etc.
In those contexts, the choice of manual vs PDK is subjective and it doesn't matter much which is faster since, as noted, few drivers will be capable of routinely driving it above 9/10ths anyway. Lack of proper track seats is a bigger issue, and IMO they totally dropped the ball in not having them available for the first production cars.
But looking at the actual use of the car, it's not a race car and not intended to be. It can surely be used as an (overly) fast street car which rivals the performance of exotics like Ferrari et al for a comparatively bargain price. And hopefully it can also be used as primarily a fun DE/open track car which is also streetable, so no mandatory trailing, etc.
In those contexts, the choice of manual vs PDK is subjective and it doesn't matter much which is faster since, as noted, few drivers will be capable of routinely driving it above 9/10ths anyway. Lack of proper track seats is a bigger issue, and IMO they totally dropped the ball in not having them available for the first production cars.
I do hope that they start racing the new engine in the future and continue to develop it so that it'd be as "bulletproof" as the Mezger. One can hope.....
Also, if you look at various interviews it appears that AP was not a fan of going to PDK. His enthusiasm drops a notch and he talks about how it was discussed and debated for a looong time before finally settling on the PDK "S"......
Agree that there should be a choice.
Last edited by the_vetman; 05-02-2013 at 03:00 PM.
05-01-2013, 07:07 PM
#120
Team Owner
If Porsche is offering manual with other 911 models and not the GT3 and 991TT what is their reason? Years ago when the issue came up with Ferrari, they basically said the performance parameters of the car could not get near its capability with manual. The F1 transmission was able to. Obviously their concern was to build a car equipped to maximize the cars performance. It would be like putting inferior tires on the car thereby substantially compromising its performance.