Veloce Raptor

Mike, I am not sure anyone here has advocated that having a "slower" performance car is better. The thing is, IMO, and based on a lot of experience with a lot of drivers in a lot of cars, I seriously doubt 99.5% of folks here or in the larger GT3 buyer universe will be able to tell whether the new car is slower or faster thhan its predecessor. So very few are even close to using the performance envelope of GT3, whether on track or street, that the benefits of something like PDK will be literally invisible. Yes, the cars will be MUCH easier to use in ruush hour traffic. But beyond that, Porsche claims 1/2 car length per shift? That is a metric--whether true or BS--that takes a pro driver and a lot of specialized mesurement gear to even ascertain. Again IMHO, this will be imperceptible to the buyer.

BBMGT3

This thread has really gone down the toilet. Never has a car not driven, seen, heard or touched by anyone sparked so much controversy.

For the most part, pretty much everything everyone is saying is correct. Mainly because its their opinion and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I would like to qualify some of these opinions though. How many weekend track-warriors? How many once-ever-now-and-then DE guys who think 7/10th is "the limit"? How many racing drivers? And, in that sub-group, how many COMPETITIVE racing drivers, like, race winners / championship winners?

I think you will find that Porsche sells cars to everyone. GT3R / RSR, GT3 CUP, GT3 / RS, Turbo, Carrera S / 4 / 4S. The main subject of discussion is the GT3 / RS. Up until the 997, the GT3 was believed to be a "Cup-lite", in that it shared the chassis, engine, suspension arms, and many other parts. Was nice to be getting invoices for Porsche Motorsports parts.

Although most who have driven a Cup may dispute that. Maybe a 996 Cup. Anyway. That era seems to be over. The GT3 looks, on paper, to be very much a road car that happens to be quick around a racetrack. Unless somehow it becomes the platform for the future race cars. No one on this forum can say for sure either way. What everyone CAN say is that they hate CL, PDK, and a whole myriad of other things on the car.

Anyway, end of the day Porsche seems to have a full order book of buyers (though, I'm not one of them). Market will determine all. Assuming that Porsche abandons its die-hard customers, well, who knows, maybe we're ****ty customers and they know better. I'm just bored of this argument. Don't buy the car. Buy the car. Buy a 991 Cup. Buy a GT3R.

I'm with AP. Shut up and drive it (even though that remark was directed specifically at the R&T journo).

FYI, I'm no saint. I hate the 918 on principle because it has batteries and it looks like it will absolutely mauled by the LaFerrari and P1. I haven't driven it, and I can't afford it. Call me a hypocrite.

Macca

This is one of the most sensible things Ive heard on the 991 GT3 board to date!

Ive frequented the track with 997.2 GT3s. Only one of them was driven with particular skill but all of the coulee put 2-5 seconds on me over a 2.8km course. the first time I went out was with one of our countries top Porsche racers riding shotgun showing me the lines. We were over taken my two GT3 and followed for half a lap. My passenger tut tutted at their lines explaining that they were using their grip and horsepower to pull the car through very poor lines and positioning on the track, claiming they would be 3-4 seconds a lap quicker if they had have learnt to drive a 250 bhp 911 proficiently on the track instead of going from a M3 CSL to the latest greatest Porsche GT3. When I looked at some of the time my race guy/instructor had put in on the track in a 22 year old 964Rs they were identical if not better than the weekend racers were putting in with 435/444 bhp .2 GT3/Rs!

I might be wrong but unless we have a whole gaggle of truly gifted track drivers here (and most of those would probably be racing Cup cars by now) I would hesitate to say that much of the rhetoric on here about track work is bull**** and bravado. The most important thing they teach you at race school down under is position and line. Gear changes come later. A "well driven" 997.2 GT3RS will show its **** to an averagely driven 991 GT3 I have absolutely no doubts. However an averagely driven 997.2 GT3RS will probably see an averagely driven 991 GT3s ****. Time will tell but I see alot of folk here will be using the "PDK" argument when this happens which i dont think will be fully justified in 80% of the cases....

Macca

BBMGT3. Well said. You posted while I wrote.

Im getting very tired of the same arguments every thread and spending less time here every day.

Any way you cut it the 991 GT3 will be a memorable car in Porsche history. Memorable because it changes the game, brings back innovation and moves the breed on, memorable because it flops or simply memorable as the most controversial GT car in history since the 991 GT3 (most here forgotten or too "young" to remember what all us hard core 964/993RS owners thought of the first "water cooled" GT3 when it launched - its didn't even have an RS moniker and weight more than the production car on which it was based! Now its revered as one of the purest).

Thing is as Im learning few current GT3 owners giving stick on this board were Porsche owners 15 years ago driving the last of the then "air cooled" breed. many on here have bought the GT3 to "out trump" the next guy at the track or because it has "the cred". many have probably moved from late model M3 or similar. Anyone long term schooled in 911 ownership will be looking at this whole thing as deja vu and being probably at least a bit circumspect of the possible outcome having been through this all before. Yes it would have been nice if nothing had changed (i.e. still manual, Mezger etc) but Porsches have continually changed. 356 owners shunned the first 911 in 1964 claiming Porsche had sold out. Look where thats led us!

frayed

Disagree with veloci

I agree that a car length advantage in acceleration and other advantages will be imperceptible to most if not all. I think where the new car will shine is 'accessible performance'. It'll be easier to go faster given all the engineering that went into the new chassis, just like the jump from the 996 to the 997 models. This was clearly the case going from my 996GT3 to my 997GT3.

There is no reason to think the same thing won't happen with the new car.

And that's the rub. The elitists here hate the idea of a faster GT3 that is driven by only average talent.

Nizer

Some interesting reading for those who've never owned a GT3 before and are considering purchasing:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=180050212

http://www.brrperformance.com/blog/?p=2043

Nothing inherently wrong with new technology if you have confidence the manufacturer will stand behind their product......

stevecolletti

To my mind, a much better day for posts, I agree with almost everything said - with one exception...

Frayed,
I disagree with "The elitists here hate the idea of a faster GT3 that is driven by only average talent." It think what you are calling 'elite' - and I'm not sure how you mean that ('skill', 'resources' , 'history', 'experience', 'purists', something else?) - are really more disappointed in the loss of a challenging/involving vehicle. If it was all about speed (and I agree with everything else in your post), people would not have stayed with, or stepped back to, the 996 GT3.. and there has been plenty of support for that car as far more involving than the 997 GT3, with all it's additional nannies.

Veloce Raptor

+991.

I am not sure whom he is labeling "elitist" because I sure as hell don't feel or act like one, and I really haven't seen anyone else here act like one either. Some may fit the label "purist". but "elitist"? Nope.

stevecolletti

Same here. I wouldn't take offense to it, no matter how he meant it, I just don't know how to interpret it.

A lot of these 'arguments' (by classical definition) are about perspective and perceived gains and losses - though that seems to keep being missed.

jumper5836

I don't think myself as an elitist or purist. I DE and I am a cars and coffee guy. I just prefer to buy something that I want and shift my self. Saving a few dollars is high on the priority list. As a ten year owner, I buy cars as keepers and now own 3 Porsche's with the 4th probably going to be a DD Macan.

Now that the GT3 and TT are not available as manual, I will have to look else where for the next car. Sounds like AP may give me something I want anyways as long as it get a significant hp upgrade as well.

Quoted from http://www.germancarforum.com/commun...orsche-cayman-

frayed

I'd be interested in the hotter Coxster. Fabulous car. Shoot, I'm not even disappointed with its power as many reviewers have complained about. It's just not as raw/involving at 4/10's on the street as my prior GT3s. If they brought that into the Coxster, it would be killer.

-----------------------------

Elitists, purists whatever, we can argue labels. Many on this forum have criticized the new GT3 (of course w/o driving it) that it may be faster but removes the driver from the process of going fast; requires less work to turn a fast lap. I think that's another way of saying a fast driver in the new GT3 is somehow a lesser driver cause *anyone* can go fast in that new car. That driver hasn't 'earned' that laptime; he cheated.

When I showed up at the track with my then new 997 GT3, some folks came up and wanted to talk all about it, and were enthusiastic. Then there were the crusty old aircooled guys. They would have rather peed on the tires than talk cars.

Me, I don't get so worked up about any of this. I'm putting my ltw back on track and will drive the **** out of it until the new metal arrives. 5 speed, 360 hp, 2800 lbs, no traction control and the wail of a properly tuned S54 motor. Doesn't mean I will keep it though cause trailering a car around is a PITA.

destaccado

That's an absolutely ridiculous statement. The "elitists" here simply want their GT3 street car to be sourced from the Motorsport GT3...

I want the old 3.8RS stuffed in this new chassis which is pretty much exactly what they did with the old cup car. Whether that means the car is a half a second slower than the wiz-bang PDK edition I could care less.

Nick

What difference does it make if it is sourced from Motor GT3 if the new car is faster?

Sometimes I think purist want Porsche to remain with cars they produced 15 years ago. No advancement of any kind because it may take away from the driving experience.

frayed

Cause you get to tell everyone at cars and coffee that you have the actual race motor sitting behind the rear axle.

destaccado

It's comments like these combined with everything else you've been posting over the years that lead me to believe you're nothing more than a troll.