991.2 GT3 RS to become a future classic ?
10-10-2019, 01:25 AM
#151
Drifting
The touring is a GT3 without a wing................they made about 15,000 GT3s...........the manual gearbox is based on the PDK and the PDK is a dual clutch manual.
The RSs stand out throughout the Porsche line up as something special and the 991.2 is the most worked over NA RS ever produced.
It’s actually not clear to me why one would buy a GT3 - it’s in no mans land these days e.g. GTS or GT3RS or GT2RS. As a street car the GTS is a better proposition, certainly more flexible and as a performance car the RS is a significantly more dialled in and more focussed drive.
This makes the current GT3 a high volume price point car much like the 488 or 458 Italia . Hence hard to see any 991 GT3 being a classic. It just doesn’t have anything definitive or unique about it - still a great car but not unique.
Conversely the RSs are the defining GT products of their individual eras and they have got better and better with each evolution and by that I mean more and more involving as well as quicker. And this makes them very special in a world of ever more detached and one dimensional cars.
Who knows what will happen with the 992 - I’m not encouraged by what I have seen in regard to the 992 Carrera - competent but not outstanding and the mainstreaming of the 911 is starting to make it feel like a product, an every mans car.
The Audification of Porsche.
From an owner’s perspective the next and final Porsche I will buy will be the 718 GT4 RS - I suspect after that and with my current .2 GT3 RS I will done with Porsche based on their current direction.
The RSs stand out throughout the Porsche line up as something special and the 991.2 is the most worked over NA RS ever produced.
It’s actually not clear to me why one would buy a GT3 - it’s in no mans land these days e.g. GTS or GT3RS or GT2RS. As a street car the GTS is a better proposition, certainly more flexible and as a performance car the RS is a significantly more dialled in and more focussed drive.
This makes the current GT3 a high volume price point car much like the 488 or 458 Italia . Hence hard to see any 991 GT3 being a classic. It just doesn’t have anything definitive or unique about it - still a great car but not unique.
Conversely the RSs are the defining GT products of their individual eras and they have got better and better with each evolution and by that I mean more and more involving as well as quicker. And this makes them very special in a world of ever more detached and one dimensional cars.
Who knows what will happen with the 992 - I’m not encouraged by what I have seen in regard to the 992 Carrera - competent but not outstanding and the mainstreaming of the 911 is starting to make it feel like a product, an every mans car.
The Audification of Porsche.
From an owner’s perspective the next and final Porsche I will buy will be the 718 GT4 RS - I suspect after that and with my current .2 GT3 RS I will done with Porsche based on their current direction.
I agree with you that one could argue that the PDK GT3 is less distinguished because if you are going to get a street-legal race car in PDK, why not get the absolute best of the best? Well, some prefer the GT3's wing, exterior styling, it's (relatively speaking) softer chassis and it's overall less precocious personality.
As far as future classics, at the end of the day, none of us really know but it is fun to prognosticate. I have a Touring and it is a brilliant car but I am not going to say it is going to be a "classic" someday, although I do think it has a better chance of being a "classic" than the GT3 RS for the reasons I previously mentioned. The sports car with a manual is a dying breed. Porsche created a masterpiece in both the R and the Touring. The 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 RS are brilliant cars in their own right but they will be surely be surpassed by the PDK transmission and the engine in the 992. I cannot say definitively that the 992 GT3 Touring (if it comes to pass, which I think it will) will be as good as or better than the 992. Faster? Of course. Better. Not necessarily - as it is sure to have far more tech in the interior (more digital and less analog) and if it looks anything like the 992 Carrera, it will be (to my eyes) an awkward design that unsuccessfully attempts to simultaneously look backward and forward in the annals of Porsche design.
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10-10-2019, 01:34 AM
#152
Keep in mind decade old 997 GT3RS’ (as well as 991 3RS) are trading at or above msrp now (997 3RS market is $135k-230k) and 997 base gt3 market is around half the price of the RS’s (well below msrp), both are three pedal. In 20+ years let’s think about who the demographic will be buying these cars, if base GT3 three pedal isn’t showing value now will it really matter in 2040? Value of “classics” seems to be about the notability, rarity, engineering and capability. Again there are plenty of other three pedal sports cars, 991 GT3 doesn’t hit the mark. If anything (only talking modern Porsche 911) It will be the 997.2 GT3RS as a manual or the 991.2 GT3RS as a dual clutch. Best of breed.
Last edited by Dot23RS; 10-10-2019 at 01:56 AM.
10-10-2019, 01:45 AM
#153
Three Wheelin'
I have no idea what will be a classic or not, so not wading into that debate. But I have to applaud some of the logical gerrymandering here - 992 touring will have a better engine than 991 touring, but apparently that won't count cause 992 will be heavier, but somehow the fact 991 touring is heavier than the 991R doesn't count cause touring has better engine than R. That there will be apparently more 992 tourings than 991 tourings counts against 992 but the fact that there are more 991 tourings than 991r somehow magically also doesn't count? That 992 RS will be faster than 991 RS counts against 991 RS, but that 992 Touring will be faster than 991 Touring doesn't. It is amazing how some here delude whatever they have is some golden sweet spot, that was never exceeded in the past and never will be in the future - that is a some really powerful power of positive thinking stuff there!
10-10-2019, 01:57 AM
#154
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
maybe price go up. who knows.
but in 20 years I am either dead or too old to drive.
I be too busy playing chess in senior home.
but in 20 years I am either dead or too old to drive.
I be too busy playing chess in senior home.
10-10-2019, 02:29 AM
#155
Rennlist Member
Groundhog - I appreciate and respect your opinion although I respectfully disagree. Some GT3s have something that is unique to almost ALL modern sports cars: A manual transmission. Part of what makes the 3.8 and 4.0 997 GT3-RS highly sought-after vehicles is the fact that they are manual transmission cars (with monster engines, minimal interior tech, smaller bodies and hydraulic steering, among other things). The 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 RS are less "special" to some of us on this forum because it does not have the manual option. Further, the PDK transmission will continue to improve with time. The manual transmission, for all intents and purposes, has reached its zenith and may soon go the way of the do-do bird. Some people - myself included - find the RS to "shouty" (as Chris Harris put it). The massive wing, the air intakes, the huge rear, the stiff chassis. Totally cool and I have high regards for RS owners, but it is not my cup of tea.
I agree with you that one could argue that the PDK GT3 is less distinguished because if you are going to get a street-legal race car in PDK, why not get the absolute best of the best? Well, some prefer the GT3's wing, exterior styling, it's (relatively speaking) softer chassis and it's overall less precocious personality.
As far as future classics, at the end of the day, none of us really know but it is fun to prognosticate. I have a Touring and it is a brilliant car but I am not going to say it is going to be a "classic" someday, although I do think it has a better chance of being a "classic" than the GT3 RS for the reasons I previously mentioned. The sports car with a manual is a dying breed. Porsche created a masterpiece in both the R and the Touring. The 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 RS are brilliant cars in their own right but they will be surely be surpassed by the PDK transmission and the engine in the 992. I cannot say definitively that the 992 GT3 Touring (if it comes to pass, which I think it will) will be as good as or better than the 992. Faster? Of course. Better. Not necessarily - as it is sure to have far more tech in the interior (more digital and less analog) and if it looks anything like the 992 Carrera, it will be (to my eyes) an awkward design that unsuccessfully attempts to simultaneously look backward and forward in the annals of Porsche design.
I agree with you that one could argue that the PDK GT3 is less distinguished because if you are going to get a street-legal race car in PDK, why not get the absolute best of the best? Well, some prefer the GT3's wing, exterior styling, it's (relatively speaking) softer chassis and it's overall less precocious personality.
As far as future classics, at the end of the day, none of us really know but it is fun to prognosticate. I have a Touring and it is a brilliant car but I am not going to say it is going to be a "classic" someday, although I do think it has a better chance of being a "classic" than the GT3 RS for the reasons I previously mentioned. The sports car with a manual is a dying breed. Porsche created a masterpiece in both the R and the Touring. The 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 RS are brilliant cars in their own right but they will be surely be surpassed by the PDK transmission and the engine in the 992. I cannot say definitively that the 992 GT3 Touring (if it comes to pass, which I think it will) will be as good as or better than the 992. Faster? Of course. Better. Not necessarily - as it is sure to have far more tech in the interior (more digital and less analog) and if it looks anything like the 992 Carrera, it will be (to my eyes) an awkward design that unsuccessfully attempts to simultaneously look backward and forward in the annals of Porsche design.
As Chris Harris put it, the RS is rather shouty. It looks fantastic on the race track, but too much on the street. And the extra stiffness and extra aero is something that only really improves the drive on a high speed track, which is sadly not a place that 991 RS see much of these days. I have much respect for my friends who have an RS, but its not something I'm interested in.
And yes the manual is a key component of the 991.2 GT3. How many other high reving NA exotics are available with a manual......NONE. So yes, the 991.2 GT3 winged and touring, (particularly the touring) will have value going forward because the 992 will be somewhat heavier, and much uglier.
But even if the market doesn't agree in the future, I don't care as I love my 991.2 GT3 and plan to keep it for a decade or more.
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10-10-2019, 09:48 AM
#156
I guess I'm one of the rare ones then. I bought my .2 GT3 knowing that I would trade to an RS when I found one I liked. A year later, I have now done so.
And I don't care which car is most likely to become desirable twenty years in the future, because I'm not a speculator of garage-kept investment art. I care about owning my favorite car now, because it's my favorite car to drive now. Sure, if it maintains a high value, or heck even goes up in value, I'll be 101% happy instead of just 100% happy. But I'll be pretty dang happy either way, because I will have had the pleasure of driving around in a rolling hunk of awesomeness.
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speed77 (10-13-2019)
10-10-2019, 10:19 AM
#157
Probably the most important thing is - we all enjoy our cars, that’s why they were built - to provide stimulus and thus enjoyment 😀
10-10-2019, 10:29 AM
#158
- - -
Last edited by Bobby 911; 10-10-2019 at 10:58 AM.
10-10-2019, 10:31 AM
#159
i'll see you at the jello bar mooty
10-10-2019, 10:35 AM
#160
Agree with this. Groundhog, no disrespect but you don't understand why people buy GT3s. And just like some RS owners on this forum you don't understand that many GT3 owners wouldn't purchase an RS if the cars cost exactly the same!
As Chris Harris put it, the RS is rather shouty. It looks fantastic on the race track, but too much on the street. And the extra stiffness and extra aero is something that only really improves the drive on a high speed track, which is sadly not a place that 991 RS see much of these days. I have much respect for my friends who have an RS, but its not something I'm interested in.
And yes the manual is a key component of the 991.2 GT3. How many other high reving NA exotics are available with a manual......NONE. So yes, the 991.2 GT3 winged and touring, (particularly the touring) will have value going forward because the 992 will be somewhat heavier, and much uglier.
But even if the market doesn't agree in the future, I don't care as I love my 991.2 GT3 and plan to keep it for a decade or more.
As Chris Harris put it, the RS is rather shouty. It looks fantastic on the race track, but too much on the street. And the extra stiffness and extra aero is something that only really improves the drive on a high speed track, which is sadly not a place that 991 RS see much of these days. I have much respect for my friends who have an RS, but its not something I'm interested in.
And yes the manual is a key component of the 991.2 GT3. How many other high reving NA exotics are available with a manual......NONE. So yes, the 991.2 GT3 winged and touring, (particularly the touring) will have value going forward because the 992 will be somewhat heavier, and much uglier.
But even if the market doesn't agree in the future, I don't care as I love my 991.2 GT3 and plan to keep it for a decade or more.
10-10-2019, 10:36 AM
#161
i did the same, then sold the RS and returned to a .2 GT3 as i missed the fun and engagement of the manual. and i just like the GT3 styling better, porsche really nailed it this time around. glad to have owned and tried both though.
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Porsche911GTS'16 (10-10-2019)
10-10-2019, 10:36 AM
#162
and as an aside the six speed in the R was developed from the 7 speed manual which was developed from the PDK
“Based on the standard 911's seven-speed gearbox, the R's drops a gear, closes up the ratios, and shortens the throws” from Road and Track 😀
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...r-first-drive/
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...pdk-tech-dept/
“The world’s first seven-speed manual gearbox is an offshoot of the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic” from Car and Driver
Both articles are a decent read.
Last edited by groundhog; 10-10-2019 at 10:52 AM.
10-10-2019, 10:56 AM
#163
don’t know that’s the case my car was specifically purchased for Tarmac Rallying ��
and as an aside the six speed in the R was developed from the 7 speed manual which was developed from the PDK
“Based on the standard 911's seven-speed gearbox, the R's drops a gear, closes up the ratios, and shortens the throws” from Road and Track ��
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...r-first-drive/
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...pdk-tech-dept/
“The world’s first seven-speed manual gearbox is an offshoot of the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic” from Car and Driver
Both articles are a decent read.
and as an aside the six speed in the R was developed from the 7 speed manual which was developed from the PDK
“Based on the standard 911's seven-speed gearbox, the R's drops a gear, closes up the ratios, and shortens the throws” from Road and Track ��
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...r-first-drive/
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...pdk-tech-dept/
“The world’s first seven-speed manual gearbox is an offshoot of the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic” from Car and Driver
Both articles are a decent read.
thanks for posting.
10-10-2019, 11:02 AM
#164
10-10-2019, 11:15 AM
#165
Race Director
Nobody really knows what will and won’t be a classic. Jay Leno was talking about when he was considering buying a F1 and he had serious reservations about it because he thought he would lose money on it. He ended up buying it for $800k and one recently sold for $24 million. Nobody knows.