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Am I right that sometimes it even depends on the material transfer?
That is correct. The pad material rubbing on pad material has a different level of friction than pad material rubbing on a squeaky clean iron disc. That's one reason why bedding in discs prior to hitting the track is going to give you a far more consistent feel (in addition to the other benefits). If you start out your day on unbedded discs, they're going to feel different after you've heated them up and lay down some pad material on them. Then it will feel like the grip changes, along with the required pedal pressure and response. It's like driving on ice and then hitting a patch of clear asphalt. The tires suddenly bite and you have some traction.
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'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs Ferodo Racing Brake Pads Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030 jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
You guys have me intrigued for sure. The math tells us leg/pedal effort should be darn close to stock. That said, some ABS algorithms are more sensitive than others. Also, system compliance definitely goes down with stiffer calipers, and it's not unusual for our customers to tell us that everything feels stiffer with more granular control.
A couple other questions:
Are you guys all running the same OEM tires? Anyone running race tires / slicks?
Has anyone been able to tell if the front or rear ABS is kicking in first? I would anticipate front. This one can be very tough to discern however, and I'm guessing that most people don't have the sensitivity to feel the difference (which would mean you're normal and not a pro driver!).
Based on just about all of the customer feedback we've received over the past couple of years, the RE-10 is more grabby and has a higher mu than the DS1.11 (although we've never run it on our dyno). As such, the brakes would require less pressure to achieve a similar response, and a higher mu pad would make the brakes feel more touchy. Again though, without hard dyno data, it's a subjective issue. One man's 'grabby' is another man's 'I'm standing on them and nothing's happening.' That's just the reality of subjective pad appraisals.
1) The changes being felt may just be from the brake pads and brake lines? I personally think it's a good thing. I'm trying to be a gentler driver rather than a hamfisted harsh one. LOL
2) I'm running the mspc2 N1 tires that came on my car from the factory
3) I have no idea how to discern where ABS is coming from and how to judge brake bias.
4) pedal feel is DEFINTELY subjective, which is what makes this all confusing.
Originally Posted by JRitt@essex
This is really awesome BTW. Driving without any nannies (ABS, stability, traction, etc.) can be a bit edgy. Turn-in on that car looks pretty sensitive on those off-camber turns. Mine's not quite that loose. I have an adjustable rear bar that I disconnect when anyone else climbs behind the wheel for the first time. It takes out just enough sting to make things manageable. I consider that bar my miata training wheels. Lol.
LOL. This was my first outing in a new car before making any adjustments. It turns out the prior owner had lowered the car too much and the suspension was bottoming out under compression and causing the car to break away in the corners like you are seeing. Once we adjusted the ride height the car was much more stable and I dropped over 2 seconds off my time. Setup is important. LOL.
Originally Posted by JRitt@essex
That is correct. The pad material rubbing on pad material has a different level of friction than pad material rubbing on a squeaky clean iron disc. That's one reason why bedding in discs prior to hitting the track is going to give you a far more consistent feel (in addition to the other benefits). If you start out your day on unbedded discs, they're going to feel different after you've heated them up and lay down some pad material on them. Then it will feel like the grip changes, along with the required pedal pressure and response. It's like driving on ice and then hitting a patch of clear asphalt. The tires suddenly bite and you have some traction.
I bedded the brakes, but even then I noticed what you are describing. The first few laps of my first session the pedal effort was similar to stock. After that is when I started to get the shudder, which is why I thought it might have been pad deposits. However, once I readjusted my braking and was lighter on the pedal, the shudder went away and the stopping distances improved substantially. You don't want to engage abs.
Originally Posted by 911therapy
That is the coolest stuff I have seen in years. Helluva way to learn Joe. Thats truly pushing to the limits. Good work, love it
LOL, thanks man. I love my spec miata as much as I love the GT3. Sounds crazy, but true.
Jeff, I am running cup 2's in 265/ 19 front and 325/ 19 rear.
Doubt I can truly discern, but definitely feels like the front ABS is kicking in first.
Understood. Thank you. Are you the one who was running Thompson last weekend?
LOL. This was my first outing in a new car before making any adjustments. It turns out the prior owner had lowered the car too much and the suspension was bottoming out under compression and causing the car to break away in the corners like you are seeing. Once we adjusted the ride height the car was much more stable and I dropped over 2 seconds off my time. Setup is important. LOL.
Ugh...nothing worse than driving a car slammed out on the bump stops. I prefer a suspension with some travel...so, so much easier to drive fast!
LOL, thanks man. I love my spec miata as much as I love the GT3. Sounds crazy, but true.
People perpetually tease me because I always say that my '92 miata is my favorite car I've ever owned or driven. I bought it for $1500, and I adore it every time I drive it.
1) The changes being felt may just be from the brake pads and brake lines? I personally think it's a good thing. I'm trying to be a gentler driver rather than a hamfisted harsh one. LOL
2) I'm running the mspc2 N1 tires that came on my car from the factory
3) I have no idea how to discern where ABS is coming from and how to judge brake bias.
4) pedal feel is DEFINTELY subjective, which is what makes this all confusing.
Just went back and watched this video. Track app is even worse than I thought. Even when do you do get it to record, the video isn't even sync'd properly!
Just went back and watched this video. Track app is even worse that I thought. Even when do you do get it to record, the video isn't even sync'd properly!
Mine is getting better... it will take time... don't give up on it! I'm still drinking the Porsche Track APP Kool-Aid. I just bought a 'RAM' mount, and RAM Iphone 7 Mount... so there will be ZERO play in the phone/video for next weekends event, and we'll see how it does!
PS the OEM size Hoosiers are mounted up and ready to go... but I'm having second thoughts on doing any alignment... I've been confirmed for the GT3RS, (about 9 months to build date) so thinking just leave the alignment as is... and just do a couple more track days without maxing the camber?
Mine is getting better... it will take time... don't give up on it! I'm still drinking the Porsche Track APP Kool-Aid. I just bought a 'RAM' mount, and RAM Iphone 7 Mount... so there will be ZERO play in the phone/video for next weekends event, and we'll see how it does!
PS the OEM size Hoosiers are mounted up and ready to go... but I'm having second thoughts on doing any alignment... I've been confirmed for the GT3RS, (about 9 months to build date) so thinking just leave the alignment as is... and just do a couple more track days without maxing the camber?
Best Regards,
Dave
I dunno, man. This is the 2nd car I've owned with the track app option and it's never worked well for me. I think there is a reason that Porsche made the app 'free' this time. Haha!
The problem with stock alignment with Hoosiers is that those tires are supposed to work better with more camber, especially since they grip more.
I dunno, man. This is the 2nd car I've owned with the track app option and it's never worked well for me. I think there is a reason that Porsche made the app 'free' this time. Haha!
The problem with stock alignment with Hoosiers is that those tires are supposed to work better with more camber, especially since they grip more.
I know... ugh decisions... fine... I'll just get the alignment done! My app continues to get better, as I use it... so not sure maybe we should compare 'versions'? But I looked and can't find a version displayed on mine.
1) The changes being felt may just be from the brake pads and brake lines? I personally think it's a good thing. I'm trying to be a gentler driver rather than a hamfisted harsh one. LOL
2) I'm running the mspc2 N1 tires that came on my car from the factory
3) I have no idea how to discern where ABS is coming from and how to judge brake bias.
4) pedal feel is DEFINTELY subjective, which is what makes this all confusing.
LOL. This was my first outing in a new car before making any adjustments. It turns out the prior owner had lowered the car too much and the suspension was bottoming out under compression and causing the car to break away in the corners like you are seeing. Once we adjusted the ride height the car was much more stable and I dropped over 2 seconds off my time. Setup is important. LOL.
I bedded the brakes, but even then I noticed what you are describing. The first few laps of my first session the pedal effort was similar to stock. After that is when I started to get the shudder, which is why I thought it might have been pad deposits. However, once I readjusted my braking and was lighter on the pedal, the shudder went away and the stopping distances improved substantially. You don't want to engage abs.
LOL, thanks man. I love my spec miata as much as I love the GT3. Sounds crazy, but true.
Joe, got the car aligned and corner weighted today, I'll let you know how it goes this weekend. 2.6 was max negative out of the front and we set the rear .2 less at 2.4 negative. Hoosiers are mounted as well... so we'll see how this weekend compares to last month when on MPSC2's
Joe, got the car aligned and corner weighted today, I'll let you know how it goes this weekend. 2.6 was max negative out of the front and we set the rear .2 less at 2.4 negative. Hoosiers are mounted as well... so we'll see how this weekend compares to last month when on MPSC2's
Alignment/Scaling done with Full Tank.
Best Regards,
Dave
Nice, dave. What kind of caster did you end up getting with -2.6? Keep an eye on the fender liner for rubbing.
05-11-2018, 12:22 PM
Driving without any nannies (ABS, stability, traction, etc.) can be a bit edgy. Turn-in on that car looks pretty sensitive on those off-camber turns. Mine's not quite that loose. I have an adjustable rear bar that I disconnect when anyone else climbs behind the wheel for the first time. It takes out just enough sting to make things manageable. I consider that bar my miata training wheels. Lol.
I'm still drinking the Porsche Track APP Kool-Aid. I just bought a 'RAM' mount, and RAM Iphone 7 Mount... so there will be ZERO play in the phone/video for next weekends event, and we'll see how it does! 
My app continues to get better, as I use it... so not sure maybe we should compare 'versions'? But I looked and can't find a version displayed on mine. 
