Bought a Cayman S instead of a Z06
03-05-2006, 12:56 PM
#91
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Ok I made up my mind. Been mulling over the Z06 verse Caymen, and after much debate I want to go with the Caymen, Z06 and a 997 Turbo!!! That should just about cover all situations I might find myself in!!! As you can see I pride myself in making the tough decision!!!! 
03-07-2006, 11:12 PM
#92
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Originally Posted by MagicMtnDan
I was gonna say how much you guys crack me up but I realized that tis is a Porsche forum. Over on the Vette forums they put down P-cars all the time too - that's the way of the Internet car forums.
Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world. Their prices are sky high and (IMO) way over-priced even though they make fine automobiles. I am a former owner of a 2000 Boxster S and I absolutely loved the car. But I probably won't ever buy another new Porsche again due to the company's greed.
Want to compare the Cayman and the Z06? Go right ahead. Want to compare Porsche dealerships to Chevy dealerships? You're crazy to even bother.
The Z06 is truly the best value performance car in the world. It will do everything any other performance car does at a much lower price and do it very very well. If 505HP is too much they have an even better bargain, the C6, which only gives you 400HP for a lot less money.
Instead of writing about how you dislike Chevys or the Z06, maybe you could spend some time explaining to everyone just how it is that Porsche justifies selling their Cayman S for more than the Boxster S when everyone knows a coupe is less costly to make than a convertible.
Wondering why Chevy dealers don't offer test drives of Z06's? Here's why - they don't have any other than the few that are sitting on showroom floors with way over-sticker prices. They are selling EVERY Z06 they make and there's continuing solid demand for these cars. No, they won't offer you a test drive on the one with the $100,000 sticker (still a good performance car value at that price). Just because you want to test drive a Z06 or buy one at MSRP doesn't mean that can happen.
I submit that if you're someone who buys a Cayman S instead of a Z06 then the Z06 really isn't the right car for you anyway. Being satisfied with 300 HP instead of 505 HP speaks volumes about you.
By the way, the Boxster S (and I'm sure the Cayman S) is a great car. It has incredible handling, brakes and the steering feel is as good as any car made. They're wonderful cars to drive and own BUT Corvettes offer those (like me) a great performance car value and they offer something I always wanted in my Boxster S - more torque and more HP!
I love performance cars and enjoy talking about them but I'm no Kool-Aid drinker (neither Porsche nor Vette). That said, I still want a C6 Z06
Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world. Their prices are sky high and (IMO) way over-priced even though they make fine automobiles. I am a former owner of a 2000 Boxster S and I absolutely loved the car. But I probably won't ever buy another new Porsche again due to the company's greed.
Want to compare the Cayman and the Z06? Go right ahead. Want to compare Porsche dealerships to Chevy dealerships? You're crazy to even bother.
The Z06 is truly the best value performance car in the world. It will do everything any other performance car does at a much lower price and do it very very well. If 505HP is too much they have an even better bargain, the C6, which only gives you 400HP for a lot less money.
Instead of writing about how you dislike Chevys or the Z06, maybe you could spend some time explaining to everyone just how it is that Porsche justifies selling their Cayman S for more than the Boxster S when everyone knows a coupe is less costly to make than a convertible.
Wondering why Chevy dealers don't offer test drives of Z06's? Here's why - they don't have any other than the few that are sitting on showroom floors with way over-sticker prices. They are selling EVERY Z06 they make and there's continuing solid demand for these cars. No, they won't offer you a test drive on the one with the $100,000 sticker (still a good performance car value at that price). Just because you want to test drive a Z06 or buy one at MSRP doesn't mean that can happen.
I submit that if you're someone who buys a Cayman S instead of a Z06 then the Z06 really isn't the right car for you anyway. Being satisfied with 300 HP instead of 505 HP speaks volumes about you.
By the way, the Boxster S (and I'm sure the Cayman S) is a great car. It has incredible handling, brakes and the steering feel is as good as any car made. They're wonderful cars to drive and own BUT Corvettes offer those (like me) a great performance car value and they offer something I always wanted in my Boxster S - more torque and more HP!
I love performance cars and enjoy talking about them but I'm no Kool-Aid drinker (neither Porsche nor Vette). That said, I still want a C6 Z06
03-08-2006, 01:23 AM
#93
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Quality and reliability are not the same thing. No doubt, Porsche is having reliablity problems with the Cayenne. However, their cars don't have these issues so one can't generalize "Porsche Quality". I don't now what their problem is with the Cayenne; maybe they should just stick to cars. Dunno.
03-08-2006, 07:26 AM
#94
Pete - I believe that Porsche has both reliablity and quality issues on some of their models. I remember the first Boxster I took on a test drive. The interior of the car had the quality of a $20K Chevy instead of a mid $40K car, and every time I drove over a bump the car rattled in two different areas.
03-08-2006, 08:37 AM
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I would agree with fast1 that the boxster has\had reliability issues also. A friend of mine just sold his Boxster S model because it was literally falling apart. Interior pieces were falling off, and it stayed in the shop. I am not saying Chevrolet has the best quality components, but you get what you pay for, and lately Porsche has not had a good reputation for living up to the price paid for it's vehicles as far as quality and reliablity is concerned. And honestly, the 911 body style is looking tired. I had hoped the new 997 Turbo would be more radical looking. It is getting really hard for a normal, non Porsche person to notice a difference in the front ends of alot of the models. And I am hearing that same sentiment from current Porsche owners. When you are paying 100K+ for a car you want the car to stand out from the rest of the companies lineup. Just my two cents!
03-08-2006, 08:38 AM
#96
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Re quality and reliability:
They actually often are the same thing, in that both are designed in. If the design is poor from an engineering or materials standpoint, it can't be improved by installation. Obviously, parts are also designed understanding how the are to be installed.
Porsche has poor quality on the RMS issue. This is a design flaw which impacts reliability.
Chevtolet has a generic stalk for cruise control, headlights, and washer/wiper. It's thesame on every cavelier, Malibu, and Corvette. It's perfectly reliable. It is perceived as poor "quality" because it doesnt't have the buttery feel of some other switchgear.
GM can't buy the same quality hides as Porsche uses for the CGT, so in some areas, Porsche has better "feel".
We use GMC Suburbans for work, and they routinely go 250,000 miles of service. AS
They actually often are the same thing, in that both are designed in. If the design is poor from an engineering or materials standpoint, it can't be improved by installation. Obviously, parts are also designed understanding how the are to be installed.
Porsche has poor quality on the RMS issue. This is a design flaw which impacts reliability.
Chevtolet has a generic stalk for cruise control, headlights, and washer/wiper. It's thesame on every cavelier, Malibu, and Corvette. It's perfectly reliable. It is perceived as poor "quality" because it doesnt't have the buttery feel of some other switchgear.
GM can't buy the same quality hides as Porsche uses for the CGT, so in some areas, Porsche has better "feel".
We use GMC Suburbans for work, and they routinely go 250,000 miles of service. AS
03-08-2006, 10:52 AM
#97
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There are many ways to slice the quality question, and quite frankly, no car from Ford to Ferrari is without some dirt if you dig. Although I know problems with Porsche are real, it is also true that 911s are at the front (with Lexus) in three year dependability rankings (JD Power). Most of the people I actually know who have modern Porsches have had good experiences. But true, there have been some problems too.
I think Corvettes are well put together cars and are certainly worth their money. I don't know anyone who doesn't respect the Z06 for the amazing car that it truly is. And I would never dream of trying to tell a Z06 owner that they bought the wrong car, because they certainly did not!
However, calling the Cayman a "run of the mill" sports car in comparison is not getting the point either, and frankly is a little disingenuous. The Cayman is one of the sharpest handling cars available at any price. It certainly does not have the overall speed potential of the 'Vette, but it offers a different combination of attributes. There is no overall right and wrong, there is just each individual's perception of what fits best for them.
And please don't hint that because someone may choose a 300 hp car over a 500 hp car that that is a reflection on their "manhood" or whatever... That is just immature.
We are all car lovers here, really no need to try to bash (both sides).
I think Corvettes are well put together cars and are certainly worth their money. I don't know anyone who doesn't respect the Z06 for the amazing car that it truly is. And I would never dream of trying to tell a Z06 owner that they bought the wrong car, because they certainly did not!
However, calling the Cayman a "run of the mill" sports car in comparison is not getting the point either, and frankly is a little disingenuous. The Cayman is one of the sharpest handling cars available at any price. It certainly does not have the overall speed potential of the 'Vette, but it offers a different combination of attributes. There is no overall right and wrong, there is just each individual's perception of what fits best for them.
And please don't hint that because someone may choose a 300 hp car over a 500 hp car that that is a reflection on their "manhood" or whatever... That is just immature.
We are all car lovers here, really no need to try to bash (both sides).
03-08-2006, 12:57 PM
#99
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I think that what this all boils down to is mainly the following. Corvette should learn from porsche that people desire quality interiors in their sports cars. Not that the cayman interior is perfect by far, but it is nicer than the vette and I think the vette interior really doesn't fit the car well. Nothing exciting about the interior of the ZO6 to me. And to those who say performance is everything and interior quality and fell means nothing are the same type of buyer who probably thinks a 68 hemi roadrunner with no carpeting is a great car because it is quick. Also, the corvette dealer experience so far has been dismal at best regardless of test drive policies.
In the showroom, the porsche defiantly seems to be a much more solid car and conveys more quality.
On the other hand, porsche should take note of the competition and lower their dollar per horsepower and options prices and kill the greed. They add 15 horse to a engine, tack on 5 grand, and the world is supposed to swoon? (or in the case of the club sport 911, 17 grand) I don't care how, "well refined and tuned" the engine is. Add some displacement for a reasonable cost. There cant be a huge weight difference between a 3.4 and a 3.8. The price of some of porsche's options at this point is borderline insane. I am not saying that the world should have cheap porsches, but the cayman is about 5g overpriced IMO. And for the life of me I cant understand why they make every car look nearly identical up front. I mean it has some really nice lines but where is porsche's imagination lately. I saw a cayman on the road today and from a 100 feet away the tail was the only giveaway.
As far as the ZO6 being a supercar, that I think is debatable, performance wise it is very close if not there, but in every other respect, I think it is leaps and bounds away from being in supercar territory. For one thing, the interior in the cayman or an E46 M3 for that matter feels far more exciting to me than the vette and most still cant tell the difference between a ZO6 and a normal vette.
They are both great cars plain and simple but different. And while I love the ZO6 for what it is, when I look at it I still have the impression that something is missing. The last two gen vettes look to me that they moulded the car in clay and got the lines nice, then took a block sander and knocked down all the nice contours and made it less interesting. I saw a 1967 vette parked next to a C6 at a dealer the other day, the 67 made the C6 look like a vacumme moulded lexan toy. I don't care how fast the new one is.
For that matter, the older 911's are more striking to me as well than the new ones.
But anywho.
Just my 0.02
In the showroom, the porsche defiantly seems to be a much more solid car and conveys more quality.
On the other hand, porsche should take note of the competition and lower their dollar per horsepower and options prices and kill the greed. They add 15 horse to a engine, tack on 5 grand, and the world is supposed to swoon? (or in the case of the club sport 911, 17 grand) I don't care how, "well refined and tuned" the engine is. Add some displacement for a reasonable cost. There cant be a huge weight difference between a 3.4 and a 3.8. The price of some of porsche's options at this point is borderline insane. I am not saying that the world should have cheap porsches, but the cayman is about 5g overpriced IMO. And for the life of me I cant understand why they make every car look nearly identical up front. I mean it has some really nice lines but where is porsche's imagination lately. I saw a cayman on the road today and from a 100 feet away the tail was the only giveaway.
As far as the ZO6 being a supercar, that I think is debatable, performance wise it is very close if not there, but in every other respect, I think it is leaps and bounds away from being in supercar territory. For one thing, the interior in the cayman or an E46 M3 for that matter feels far more exciting to me than the vette and most still cant tell the difference between a ZO6 and a normal vette.
They are both great cars plain and simple but different. And while I love the ZO6 for what it is, when I look at it I still have the impression that something is missing. The last two gen vettes look to me that they moulded the car in clay and got the lines nice, then took a block sander and knocked down all the nice contours and made it less interesting. I saw a 1967 vette parked next to a C6 at a dealer the other day, the 67 made the C6 look like a vacumme moulded lexan toy. I don't care how fast the new one is.
For that matter, the older 911's are more striking to me as well than the new ones.
But anywho.
Just my 0.02
03-08-2006, 03:25 PM
#100
In this type of discussion the lack of distinction between the various Porsche models always seems to come up as a negative. I have never understood why people are so concerned that the current models look so similar to each other. So what if the average person doesn’t know the difference between the cars. I don’t buy my vehicles so others know what I drive or to make a statement. I buy them because I like what the cars offer me or how they look to me not for what they tell others. I could care less that the front end of my car is identical to the Boxster from the same year or that someone may confuse my car for a Boxster. The truth is most non-porsche fans can’t tell you what is a new 911 and what is an old one, not to mention distinguish between a turbo and a C2. I have always equated this to the fact that a Porsche has a look and has always attempted to blend the new with its heritage, essentially they have a “brand” in the look of their cars. The distinctive shape and various design influences should always be seen in the cars in my opinion.
03-08-2006, 04:25 PM
#102
I think that what this all boils down to is mainly the following. Corvette should learn from porsche that people desire quality interiors in their sports cars.
GM's objective for the Corvette is to be a leader in price, performance, and styling. It wouldn't be that hard for GM to design an interior that would be equal to that of a 911, but the price would climb. Rightly or wrongly GM has made a conscious decision to be a price leader with the vette. Therefore, you will see GM using the same parts on many different models, including the vette.
The problem that Porsche has is that every time they make an improvement, there aren't a lot of units to absorb the cost of developing that improvement. Hence, a relatively small change will affect the price of a Porsche a lot more than it would for a GM product.
GM's objective for the Corvette is to be a leader in price, performance, and styling. It wouldn't be that hard for GM to design an interior that would be equal to that of a 911, but the price would climb. Rightly or wrongly GM has made a conscious decision to be a price leader with the vette. Therefore, you will see GM using the same parts on many different models, including the vette.
The problem that Porsche has is that every time they make an improvement, there aren't a lot of units to absorb the cost of developing that improvement. Hence, a relatively small change will affect the price of a Porsche a lot more than it would for a GM product.
03-08-2006, 04:25 PM
#103
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Brian, I totally agree with you. However, we have to acknowledge that a majority of Porsche buyers are in it for status and to them, having the Turbo look a lot different than a C2 is a big deal.
Regarding Z06 vs. Cayman S: I hope that the C6 is much more robust than the C5 Z06 I had. The C5 was fast and fun, but it wasn't engineered to have fun for more than 20 minutes at a time. Engine oil temp ran at 275 to 300 degrees after 20 minutes of track driving (70 degree outside temp), transmission over temp idiot light comes on at about the same time, transmission tunnel transmitted a ton of heat into the cabin and the rotors lasted 4 lapping days at best before cracking. You can watch the SCCA T1 class where the Z06 dominates how by the end of the half hour race the Vettes would be smoking from overheating.
My previous Boxster S on the other hand could be driven for an hour on the track and the water temp didn't budge and the brakes lasted 12+ lapping days easily. Yeah, the Z06 rotors were only $25 bucks, but I didn't like the idea that on that 3 or 4 lapping day one might crack.
The only C6 Z06 that I know of that has been to the track several times is now blowing large quantities of blue smoke when it is started up. There have been some interesting brake pad wear issues too. I'm hoping these are issolated incidents because at $70K, the Z06 needs to be as robust as a Boxster.
I'll be watching the Vette forums to see how the Z06 works out for track use over then next few years and then decide if I want one. That is what I did with the C5; I bought mine in Aug of 2004 just before the C6 was about to hit the showrooms. By then, I knew that I needed an aux oil cooler and aux trans/diff coolers before my first track day in the car and that I should always carry spare rotors with me.
Regarding Z06 vs. Cayman S: I hope that the C6 is much more robust than the C5 Z06 I had. The C5 was fast and fun, but it wasn't engineered to have fun for more than 20 minutes at a time. Engine oil temp ran at 275 to 300 degrees after 20 minutes of track driving (70 degree outside temp), transmission over temp idiot light comes on at about the same time, transmission tunnel transmitted a ton of heat into the cabin and the rotors lasted 4 lapping days at best before cracking. You can watch the SCCA T1 class where the Z06 dominates how by the end of the half hour race the Vettes would be smoking from overheating.
My previous Boxster S on the other hand could be driven for an hour on the track and the water temp didn't budge and the brakes lasted 12+ lapping days easily. Yeah, the Z06 rotors were only $25 bucks, but I didn't like the idea that on that 3 or 4 lapping day one might crack.
The only C6 Z06 that I know of that has been to the track several times is now blowing large quantities of blue smoke when it is started up. There have been some interesting brake pad wear issues too. I'm hoping these are issolated incidents because at $70K, the Z06 needs to be as robust as a Boxster.
I'll be watching the Vette forums to see how the Z06 works out for track use over then next few years and then decide if I want one. That is what I did with the C5; I bought mine in Aug of 2004 just before the C6 was about to hit the showrooms. By then, I knew that I needed an aux oil cooler and aux trans/diff coolers before my first track day in the car and that I should always carry spare rotors with me.
03-08-2006, 06:04 PM
#104
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Originally Posted by pstoppani
Brian, I totally agree with you. However, we have to acknowledge that a majority of Porsche buyers are in it for status and to them, having the Turbo look a lot different than a C2 is a big deal.
so the poser wants to buy boxster cause it looks like a turbo!
remember, even though turbo is a great car, boxster makes more $$
03-08-2006, 06:41 PM
#105
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Originally Posted by pl
so the poser wants to buy boxster cause it looks like a turbo!