Adrian

True, but I have met somebody who has run Motec (not fitted or mapped by Colin) on a 964 C2 for 2 years and he has reported no issues. He has his car serviced by the same specialist as me, a specialist who is not a Motec dealer!

In addition, I do know people who have run both Motec and Gems on road cars for 5 years or more. I was one! I have never come across a case of this causing problems. In fact, i would agrue that as the componentry is designed to stand up to the harsh racing environment and in many cases rallying, the stuff tends to be more robust than normal.

However, and to further expand, on what Geoffery has said, I have seen issues caused by bad mapping and the danger of mappable ECU's is exactly that. On the other hand, it seems that bad chips are a constant cause for concern with Motronics. In the case of Motec or similar, so long as the installation is OK, getting over a bad map is actually not a probelm (so long as no engine damage has occured) and you still keep all the benefits. With a bad chip, I believe your option is go go back to the beginning and fit either another chip or back to standard.

 

Geoffrey, I rechecked, and I still read it that way, well not childhood, but "at some point in life", the same. Anger does not entitle you to make personal comments such as these, and if you have an anger problem get it sorted out in private. Here it is to refresh your memory.
Well Geoffrey, do I need to refresh your memory? This is what you posted after my first post, and then you deleted it (again....).
And from Colin
So you remember now why I said you seemed not happy to see me?
I will pass on all the other BS.

My comments about Cup Cars Bosch Motronic were misleading?
How is that, I never said they were street ECUs obviously, they are Motronic ECUs however!

I have a 2002 Cup car parked in my house (the world Supercup champion in case you want to know), I think I know quite well how they idle, run, drive and what they have in them.

The Motec ECU that they have is STRICTLY for data acquisition, just clarifying so that people are not confused.

 

Jean

Surely you can see that your comment

is an admission that your earlier comment was misleading? I, for one, thought you had a standard Motronic DME which had been modified.

It's rather like saying that any car which has a Bosch mass produced ECU has a Formula 1 ecu. Yes, they may be the same make and for marketing purposes have the same name, but one costs more than most cars do. Another example is the way that Shell advertise their link with Ferrari in such a way to make us think we are using the same fuel. It's not just what they say, it's also what they don't.

 

"This Motronic-Motec debate could go on for years ! The bottom line is that they are both engine management systems and both can be altered to give appropriate fuel/timing etc values.
When a significant performance difference arises it is because an important control parameter is different between the systems.With that parameter identified and equalised the two systems will then give equal results." - Geoff

That was worth rereading.

Motec is not an upgrade for a 964 street-driven car. Of itself, there is no extra power hidden within Motec. That part plays to the tuner. It is far more expensive to buy/install/map Motec than to remap the more sophisticated Motronics. That few have the time, money, and ability to tune Motronics is no more a deterent to me than to having only a handful of Motec tuners in all North America.

Noah

 

Simon,
As usual with these discussions things just start going around and around in circles. You are now presenting things which in my mind require proof. If I had a dollar for every time somebody wrote on these forums "no issues reported" I would be a very wealthy man.
I will be straight up and honest and say I would never advise anyone to fit a Motec or any other aftermarket ECU to their normal road car because;
1/. There is no knock sensing system. Therefore I would be stuck with running a specific octane fuel. If the weather is hot and I cannot get 98 and have to use 95 or less I can run the risk of damaging my engine. I drive all over Europe including all of the UK and I cannot always get 98 octane fuel. Somehow I managed to find a petrol station on the A34 that sold only 95 and lower.
2/. Motec does not comply with the various stringent emission laws in place all around the world. In the UK maybe nobody checks the emissions, but here and in many other nations they do. We even have random emissions checks where you are pulled over and tested. They stick the probe up your exhaust. If the readings are not what they should be, watch out. They will plug in the diagnostic checker to read the system and when they find nothing is showing then the owner is stuffed and his car is defected.
There are simple and practical reasons why such systems are in my opinion best left for the racing and rallying guys. A Porsche or any other car for that matter is the sum of all of its parts. It's how they all work together that counts and as I said when somebody says "I have had no issues"; either they do not know any better (which is often the case because they putrchased the car like this) or they are not telling the whole truth. Remember I have been around for along time and have heard it all before.

As for the chipping of Motronics. I have never advised anyone at anytime to purchase aftermarket pre-programmed performance chips (including those who wanted copies of my chip data from my C4). As far as I am concerned the only way to do it properly is to have your chip live mapped on the dyno by somebody who has a proven track record in doing such things.

What is often missing from all these discussions and claims is proven and documented track records of many of the various products which can be evaluated when it comes to "getting more power" for the sake of wanting more power for normal daily driving. I would also like to see reliability and cost of ownership data provided by ALL the tuners regardless of their preferred systems. I only know of two that do this and provide references as well.
Ciao,
Adrian.

 

The problem is, most of these guys seem to have given up on 964's and the most they offer as standard is no improvement on what i have. They could do some development work but when you combine the costs, travel etc, the benefits of staying with Motronics all but dissapear. I will make a few more phone calls just to check but it doesn't look promising.

The problem is, as I have stated before, I want more power than most have previously been happy with. It is my view that this will become more common. There are a couple of reasons for this. Firstly, the cars can handle the power, particularly my RS. Secondly, more modern cars deliver that power and therefore people become more conditioned to it. And before Adrian comments I would rather drive a tuned 964RS than an untuned GT3RS, even if the costs were the same. IMO, the tuned 964RS would be a nicer drivers car.

The final reason why I think there will be more demand as time goes on is that as people rebuild or replace parts due to age, there is a temptation to upgrade. If, for the same or similar money, you could get better handling, brakes, more power etc, I bet most would choose to upgrade.

At some point, there might be a swing back the other way, namely people wanting cars to be original. then the likes of Colin can make money converting the cars they have tuned back to standard, no doubt selling us back our original parts, now reconditioned, at vast premiums

 

Funnily enough, the knock sensor issue is the one thing I really don't like about Motec and why I ran Gems, which does have knock sensing and adjustment. However, on the cars with Motec, a simple solution is to run a seperate knock sensor so that you have a warning that the fuel is bad and then you can back off. I don't know if that has been done on a Porsche, but if it hasn't and I get Motec, I will bet you it will I have also heard of people having 2 maps, but have no experience myself.

A minor point is your comment about petrol on the A34 only being 95 or lower. I cannot remember seeing anything lower than 95 for sale anywhere in the UK, so I must take a trip there out of curiousity (Sorry, poor attempt at humour )

I am completely baffled by this comment and must be misunderstanding it. It is the map of the ecu that determines whether a system would comply with emmission laws. I believe that it would be totally wrong to suggest you cannot map an ECU like Motec to comply. I know many cars that pass UK emmision tests with Motec and Gems systems. I also know of somebody running Gems on an Evo in Switzerland that complies (mapped by a friend).

Excuse the ecu 101 for a minute (no offence intended) but a Motec ECU is effectievly a processor which determines fueling and timing etc. It does this via a series of comands known as a map. That map could, if required,m exactly mirror the map on the Motronic and therefore the emmisions would be the same. Anybody producing a map for a road car that didn't allow that road car to comply with local emmisions laws would be serverely limiting their market and I would imagine be laying themselves open to "conspiacy" charges by the law enforcemnt agencies unless they stated those maps were not for road use.

And as a warning, they do random emmision tests in the UK. I had one about 3 weeks ago and they intend to increase them by a factor of 10 this coming year!

Please explain further. What "issues" have you heard of? What issues did I miss in all the time I had my Evo? I can absolutely assure you that I have not had any issues with a mappable ECU or the sensors or components that were changed to allow it to be fitted. I have heard of the failure of the odd sensor, but that happens with standard cars as well. So, based on your comments above, I do not know any better. On the basis of the above, nor does half the Evo tuning world. What have we missed? Or have I misinterpretted your comments?

Now, I must admit that I doubt anybody has tested mappable ECU's to the sort of milage that we see some 964's covering. My Evo only did about 36,000 miles on the Gems before I sold. So there may well be issues of longevity compared with a standard car but we are talking about a tuned engine and I am sure that people do not expect a tuned engine to last as long as an under stressed untuned one. The question really is whether the tuning gives a respectable amount of longevity and I have seen no evidence that a properly mapped car, witha system such as Motec, will not last an acceptable amount of time. The more power you go for, the less time the engine will last but that would not be due to the ecu (unless badly mapped)

Strangely enough, I couldn't agree with you more on this. I hate the "one chip fits all" concept.

You do have a point here but TBH, if cost of ownership is the issue, you shouldn't be getting into tuning Porsches, or any other car for that matter!

 

Simon,
One reason I do not participate on these forums like I used to is because these threads go on and on. You are so determined to make a point that you cannot just sit back and say; "well okay time to cut and run". I am not going to waste anymore of my time on this nor am I going to be subject to constant cross-examination by yourself. This is also why Loren does not bother because it is never ending with a constant barrage of more questions in order to try and win points that really just confuse the issue. You clearly do not understand my motivation in this matter. However I have said my piece and it is time to leave the conversation. People can read what you have written, they can read what I have written and make their own mind up. If they wish questions answered like you have asked me they can ask the tuner to provide the answers like;
How does Motec use the Oxygen sensor input to regulate the exhaust gas output (applicable to all 964 in nations with Emissions laws covering this model)?
How does Motec provide the input to the OBDII connector so that the readiness measurements can be taken (applicable from model year 1996)?
My recommendations, experience and opinions are in writing here and elsewhere and people can take them in the spirit they were delivered. They are given free and without obligation and can be discarded or used as each individual sees fit.
The one thing I would like to see is the latest Abgasse readout of your friends Evo compared to his pre Gems installation and the MFK (Roadworthy) certification of the system from his Kantonal Authorities. This you can send this to me via E-mail if you wish.
Of course this has nothing to do with Motec on a Porsche 964 which this thread is all about and by the way cost of ownership is very important because tuning can lead to great pleasure, but equally great despair and financial hardship if things are not done correctly. I totally reject your last sentence, but again that is up to each individual to decide how to take such off the cuff remarks.
Ciao,
Adrian.

PS: The service station on the A34 was BP place. I was heading towards Andover, but I cannot remember how far away it was. Would not have been more than 30 miles though.

PSS: Here is a thread from the Lancer guys. http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...hreadid=126324
I have also read up on the Gems system and it is way different from the Motec solution and Gems is NOT available or usable on Porsches. If anyone wants to look up this system they can go to http://www.gems.co.uk/ems/rallying.html
even though it is totally irrelevant when it comes to normally aspirated Porsches. These guys are primarily into Turbocharged Japanese cars used for Rallying.

 

Simon,
My street car, my 3.8 Ltr highly tuned 993TT in the signature has a normal Motronic N/A ECU that reads pressure sensing etc.., the post above was related to the Cup car. I am not misleading anyone.

 

Motronic is used by people who know how to map it properly (like Porsche do) Anything else for a road Porsche is a compromise - to be mapped properly requires serious tools and serious people who know what they are doing - non of this is cheap.
Here is a pic of a 3.5 N/A engine which has just been refreshed after 160,000 KM - it lives in the back of a 1000kg '88 911 Carrera factory lightweight with lots aluminium panels. The engine is Motronic and puts out 335 (Porsche style) hp

 

I guess that Adrian and I will never agree over mappable ECU's so maybe we should agree to disagree.

I find it amusing that he chooses a forum that I am still a moderator on to make a point. On it Billy says he had problems with Gems. They were all in the mapping. You are also see that the guys are discussing the merits of these ECU's and have come to the same conclusions as I have given above. Choose your ECU depending on what your mapper (tuner) is happy with.

Way before I found Colin, I had spoken to 3 out fo the 4 mappers mentioned about fitting their ECU's to my car. They confirmed that Autronics and Gems could be used on a n/a Porsche (as well as Motec), although they would have to make looms etc. On the other hand, so would most Motec dealers as there are none made off the shelf. Gems is not just about Japanese Rally cars. It is currently the ECU of choice for the Rover "K" series engine and is very popular with Lotus Elise tuners.

As I say, it is clear that this is something that Adrian and I will never agree on. I personally see the future of 964 and 993 tuning being through Motec or similar ecu's. They give the abilty to tuners to try new things quickerly and cheaply. Just look at how Colin was able to change exhausts, quickly adjust the maps to gain the most he could and then try another.

I accept there are probably some who can do that with Motronics but it is only a few. It is through competition and experimentation that good tuning happens and at this moment in time, the general choice of options for tuning 964's is rather limited. Maybe I am wrong and there isn't a market but having read as much interest on here as there is, I would bet that there is a so far, untapped pent up demand which will continue to grow. Time will tell but I don't really care. By then, I hope to be driving a 964RS that produces about 340bhp, has a good power curve, is nice to drive on the road and at the same time, can give the waterpushers (GT3) brigade a real shock

 

Jean

Sorry, but I got confused (probably still am!). Tuning turbo cars is a whole different game and don't doubt you can get the results with Motronics. I also am happy to accept that there are tuners who can use Motronic but I live in the UK and so far, so far, I haven't found anybody to past the point of tune I have already. Even though I think my plan is made, I will still try the last couple of leads just so I know my research has been as extensive as possible.

 

Guys,

The one suggestion that has come up time after time is the ability of Motec to make more bhp than a remapped Motronic.
At the power levels being discussed I can see the AFM being a limitation for the 964 Motronic M2.1 . If that is relaced by a different load sense sensor , like MAF for example which has no practical level of flow obstruction , still the power levels are not achieved.
Ignition timing and tailpipe fuelling levels are easily mapped on M2.1 as are just about any other parameter.
Do any of the Motec tuners have an idea as to what enables the Motec system to perform so well ?
For example is the injection start point critical ?
From an engineering perspective there must be a key improvement acheived with Motec to give the power levels being talked about.
After all ,all we are talking about here is providing a spark at the right time and
squirting the correct amout of fuel in !!
As someone who has mapped many 964s in bygone days it just irritates to think I missed something big back then !!

All the best

Geoff

 

Geoff,

You didn't miss anything - and you know it! :-)

Noah

 

TB993tt,

All that effort for only 335hp. That engine, with some simple bits and Motec would easily be at or exceeding GT3 power!

Noah