Did Porsche detuned the 951? Or it was fate? Article inside
#121
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A porsche 944 t appears on craigs list (or what ever you use to buy/sell cars)
"oh wow a cheap porsche, that's cool.. i want it"
they buy it, okay time for a service.. just like any other car.. Change the belts and water pump and a few filters and oil.
Oh damn i can't afford all that, i'll just swap the oil and oil filter, the alternator belt and should be good till next year.
Engine plays up because fuel filter is clogged. Spends money on new parts like FPR, Injectors, Sparkplugs, Leads ect.. cannot solve problem. Back up for sale.
"for sale, 944t slight missfire (price slightly lower then bought for)"
new owner buys it for a small project... owner says fill service has been done last year..
He finds the issue, new fuel filter and car runs fine. Week later BOOM cam belt breaks.
finds out damage.. cannot afford to fix it.
'944t for sale, broken cam belt.. cheap price.
Lart buys it. End of 944t.
"oh wow a cheap porsche, that's cool.. i want it"
they buy it, okay time for a service.. just like any other car.. Change the belts and water pump and a few filters and oil.
Oh damn i can't afford all that, i'll just swap the oil and oil filter, the alternator belt and should be good till next year.
Engine plays up because fuel filter is clogged. Spends money on new parts like FPR, Injectors, Sparkplugs, Leads ect.. cannot solve problem. Back up for sale.
"for sale, 944t slight missfire (price slightly lower then bought for)"
new owner buys it for a small project... owner says fill service has been done last year..
He finds the issue, new fuel filter and car runs fine. Week later BOOM cam belt breaks.
finds out damage.. cannot afford to fix it.
'944t for sale, broken cam belt.. cheap price.
Lart buys it. End of 944t.
All i can say is i maintain my car and have not had a maintenance issue.
I've had an issue here or there that a replacement part has fixed.
Except the coolant hose bursting... that happens at old age... which i have mentioned. old cars need extra care because not ever part is on the maintenance list and one day will let go.
I've had an issue here or there that a replacement part has fixed.
Except the coolant hose bursting... that happens at old age... which i have mentioned. old cars need extra care because not ever part is on the maintenance list and one day will let go.
#122
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i was like this at the first few weeks of my ownership, then i had some time to chill out and read while i was on vacation in europe, i got called dumb, and insane by you guys, but that only helped me to understand what this car is all about, maintanance comes first then the goodies, not alot of youngsters like me are intrested in these cars espcialy to work on, but i love to work on mine, geting the car up to shape is the most rewarding thing, btw for People saying: "its a 944 its a poor mans porsche" my answer is this "yes its a poor mans porsche because owning one and maintaining it makes you poor"
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#126
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I feel the same way about my black 944T/S great article thanks for the awesome read
Mike
now where's my keys
Mike
now where's my keys
#127
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Nice pdf, Thanks!
#128
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I feel that every car is detuned. or most cars with turbos can be tuned for more power.
the 996 turbo for example, after a new tune, you can push another 80hp out of it with a tune alone.
A car running everything at its limits won't last as long when it's not running at it's limits
the 996 turbo for example, after a new tune, you can push another 80hp out of it with a tune alone.
A car running everything at its limits won't last as long when it's not running at it's limits
#129
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I'm not going to provide full scientific reasons, cuz I'm not that smart.
the air-cooled 911 isn't just one of the best go-fast plans ever–w/ no drive shaft, or 345 Lb exhaust pipes (*see 968
), less skin, and no heavy rear decklid/glass – if Walter Rohrl can do it, then a few other people should be able to...
but all that weight isn't just resting upon the rear axle – it's hanging out the back.
is this terrible? well, thanks to 15"-wide tires–apparently, not.
but the problems with trying to turn the cars without killing the drivers go back a ways.
but, they did improve them so the bad drivers would die less often.
to compare them to something else – ok, the transaxle P-cars need to go on a diet, get composite hoods, lexan glass, and need more hp than the 911...
but, that's ok. our cars handle better. can take tons of hp/(3.0T/V8) and still not kill their drivers running only 12" tires.... so while not as simple, i think the 50/50 is the better design. imagine an aluminum tub and composite skin.... and high hp.
and i like that driveshaft running the length of the car in case I get hit by a 747.
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but all that weight isn't just resting upon the rear axle – it's hanging out the back.
is this terrible? well, thanks to 15"-wide tires–apparently, not.
but the problems with trying to turn the cars without killing the drivers go back a ways.
but, they did improve them so the bad drivers would die less often.
to compare them to something else – ok, the transaxle P-cars need to go on a diet, get composite hoods, lexan glass, and need more hp than the 911...
but, that's ok. our cars handle better. can take tons of hp/(3.0T/V8) and still not kill their drivers running only 12" tires.... so while not as simple, i think the 50/50 is the better design. imagine an aluminum tub and composite skin.... and high hp.
and i like that driveshaft running the length of the car in case I get hit by a 747.
#130
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That's a car I always drive with respect and concentration, just like a sport bike.
#131
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as much as darwin's spirit was vested upon the 930, I also know that Ray Charles himself contributed to the design of the 928
#132
Burning Brakes
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Some years back, about 30 water-cooled Porsche guys ratraced about 500 miles through southern British Columbia, at high speed. One guy (Bryan) ran his 944 Turbo to top speed, to see how fast it would go. 162 mph, as I recall There were about 15-18 944 Turbos of one age or another, a few NA 944s, and about half dozen 928s. At the start of the day, the 928 guys seemed pretty cocky. By lunch, not so much. By the end of the day, it was obvious that the 944 Turbo was hands-down the best of the lot, more agile, faster, far better at altitude, more economical on fuel. All that extra weight and bulk on a 928 is just excess baggage.
#133
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+996 ![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
And for the forum, I agree the 951 is a great car, and currently the best bang-for-buck Porsche, but putting down all other Porsche's/cars doesn't make it any better...anyone who says a 911/911TT/930/etc is 'bad' handling chassis clearly isn't a true driver or hasn't experienced one in person, they are very talented and nimble chassis where the 951 is very balanced and neutral in character, very different but both strong in different regards/driving styles.
now to unsubscribe, the thread updates make me embarrassed to be a (now-ex)951 owner...![surrender](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/surrender.gif)
![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
And for the forum, I agree the 951 is a great car, and currently the best bang-for-buck Porsche, but putting down all other Porsche's/cars doesn't make it any better...anyone who says a 911/911TT/930/etc is 'bad' handling chassis clearly isn't a true driver or hasn't experienced one in person, they are very talented and nimble chassis where the 951 is very balanced and neutral in character, very different but both strong in different regards/driving styles.
now to unsubscribe, the thread updates make me embarrassed to be a (now-ex)951 owner...
![surrender](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/surrender.gif)
I feel that every car is detuned. or most cars with turbos can be tuned for more power.
the 996 turbo for example, after a new tune, you can push another 80hp out of it with a tune alone.
A car running everything at its limits won't last as long when it's not running at it's limits
the 996 turbo for example, after a new tune, you can push another 80hp out of it with a tune alone.
A car running everything at its limits won't last as long when it's not running at it's limits
#134
Burning Brakes
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+996 ![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
And for the forum, I agree the 951 is a great car, and currently the best bang-for-buck Porsche, but putting down all other Porsche's/cars doesn't make it any better...anyone who says a 911/911TT/930/etc is 'bad' handling chassis clearly isn't a true driver or hasn't experienced one in person, they are very talented and nimble chassis where the 951 is very balanced and neutral in character, very different but both strong in different regards/driving styles.
now to unsubscribe, the thread updates make me embarrassed to be a (now-ex)951 owner...![surrender](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/surrender.gif)
![ducking](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/icon107.gif)
And for the forum, I agree the 951 is a great car, and currently the best bang-for-buck Porsche, but putting down all other Porsche's/cars doesn't make it any better...anyone who says a 911/911TT/930/etc is 'bad' handling chassis clearly isn't a true driver or hasn't experienced one in person, they are very talented and nimble chassis where the 951 is very balanced and neutral in character, very different but both strong in different regards/driving styles.
now to unsubscribe, the thread updates make me embarrassed to be a (now-ex)951 owner...
![surrender](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/surrender.gif)
Well, I wish I could afford a brand new Porsche, including the rear engine models.
Regardless of price and factory fine tuning of the 911 series, the laws of physics are basically irreconcilable with two basic facts about such cars: First, putting a large mass at the back end of the car (especially behind the rear axle) is inherently unstable: It's like putting a large and heavy mass at the back end of an arrow--which will try and swap ends midflight given much disturbance. Second, air cooling can only do so much to extract heat from the innards of the engine. To do that efficiently you must reach down into the engine and pull the heat out and put it where it can efficiently dissipate. Otherwise, you must waste fuel with over-rich mixture in a vain attempt at evaporative cooling. The weight saved in coolant is many times eclipsed by the extra weight and cost of fuel otherwise wasted in cooling. Both issues are ancient debates in aircraft design.
As for detuning the 944 Turbo, consider also the ongoing parallel with water-cooled and mid-engined Cayman vs. 911 cars. Factory people have effectively admitted that Porsche detunes the less expensive Cayman rather than eclipse the more expensive but more profitable 911 series cars, which are Porsche's habitual cash cow to be very profitably milked as long as people pay bigger bucks for otherwise inferior cars. That's apparently what much of the buyer pool still wants (logic and physics notwithstanding), and Porsche may be more than happy to overcharge for it.
As for being a "true driver," given variables such as weather and road conditions, it seems to me the designers should produce cars as easy and predicable to drive as possible. There are parallels in aviation, where the best fighter planes are those easiest, most predictable, and most intuitive to fly. There are enough unknown variables to deal with without having to fight with your own plane. Same story with inherently unstable car design. Notice that the best high performance cars such as Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren, etc. have not gone the unstable rear-engine route of the 911 cars, which started out and remain essentially VW bugs.
#135
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Well, I wish I could afford a brand new Porsche, including the rear engine models.
Regardless of price and factory fine tuning of the 911 series, the laws of physics are basically irreconcilable with two basic facts about such cars: First, putting a large mass at the back end of the car (especially behind the rear axle) is inherently unstable: It's like putting a large and heavy mass at the back end of an arrow--which will try and swap ends midflight given much disturbance. Second, air cooling can only do so much to extract heat from the innards of the engine. To do that efficiently you must reach down into the engine and pull the heat out and put it where it can efficiently dissipate. Otherwise, you must waste fuel with over-rich mixture in a vain attempt at evaporative cooling. The weight saved in coolant is many times eclipsed by the extra weight and cost of fuel otherwise wasted in cooling. Both issues are ancient debates in aircraft design.
As for detuning the 944 Turbo, consider also the ongoing parallel with water-cooled and mid-engined Cayman vs. 911 cars. Factory people have effectively admitted that Porsche detunes the less expensive Cayman rather than eclipse the more expensive but more profitable 911 series cars, which are Porsche's habitual cash cow to be very profitably milked as long as people pay bigger bucks for otherwise inferior cars. That's apparently what much of the buyer pool still wants (logic and physics notwithstanding), and Porsche may be more than happy to overcharge for it.
As for being a "true driver," given variables such as weather and road conditions, it seems to me the designers should produce cars as easy and predicable to drive as possible. There are parallels in aviation, where the best fighter planes are those easiest, most predictable, and most intuitive to fly. There are enough unknown variables to deal with without having to fight with your own plane. Same story with inherently unstable car design. Notice that the best high performance cars such as Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren, etc. have not gone the unstable rear-engine route of the 911 cars, which started out and remain essentially VW bugs.
Regardless of price and factory fine tuning of the 911 series, the laws of physics are basically irreconcilable with two basic facts about such cars: First, putting a large mass at the back end of the car (especially behind the rear axle) is inherently unstable: It's like putting a large and heavy mass at the back end of an arrow--which will try and swap ends midflight given much disturbance. Second, air cooling can only do so much to extract heat from the innards of the engine. To do that efficiently you must reach down into the engine and pull the heat out and put it where it can efficiently dissipate. Otherwise, you must waste fuel with over-rich mixture in a vain attempt at evaporative cooling. The weight saved in coolant is many times eclipsed by the extra weight and cost of fuel otherwise wasted in cooling. Both issues are ancient debates in aircraft design.
As for detuning the 944 Turbo, consider also the ongoing parallel with water-cooled and mid-engined Cayman vs. 911 cars. Factory people have effectively admitted that Porsche detunes the less expensive Cayman rather than eclipse the more expensive but more profitable 911 series cars, which are Porsche's habitual cash cow to be very profitably milked as long as people pay bigger bucks for otherwise inferior cars. That's apparently what much of the buyer pool still wants (logic and physics notwithstanding), and Porsche may be more than happy to overcharge for it.
As for being a "true driver," given variables such as weather and road conditions, it seems to me the designers should produce cars as easy and predicable to drive as possible. There are parallels in aviation, where the best fighter planes are those easiest, most predictable, and most intuitive to fly. There are enough unknown variables to deal with without having to fight with your own plane. Same story with inherently unstable car design. Notice that the best high performance cars such as Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren, etc. have not gone the unstable rear-engine route of the 911 cars, which started out and remain essentially VW bugs.
Unstable can also mean quick to turn in, easy to rotate and generally responsive (in the right hands)
Stable can also mean slow to turn in, not responsive to trail braking and, in general, just too stable to be quick.
Now obviously I like the 944 chassis but to say that cars that have anything other than a 50/50 weight distribution are 'bad' is just not true. Unless you have driven a well set up 911 at the track you just are just recycling internet 'intelligence'.
BTW - the reason I say at the track is that you cannot get anywhere near the capabilities of a well set up 944 or 911 on the street. Ask anybody that has had the chance to drive around the track in a Porsche - they will all agree that the limit is not approachable on the street.