Did Porsche detuned the 951? Or it was fate? Article inside
12-09-2013, 11:34 AM
#91
Burning Brakes
Oh the joy of sibling rivalry! Let's see the humorous points are:
1) Heritage be damned, a 911 guy calling out the VW parts bin aspects of the 944 and referring to it as the RWD VW Golf.
2) A 911 guy calling a 944 a rust bucket. (Man talk about the pot calling the kettle black.)
3) Engine heritage be damned, a 944 guy calling a 928 guy, gay.
4) A 914 guy saying the 944 isn't a real Porsche.
5) Everyone conveniently forgetting the pricing, exchange rate and competition conundrum Porsche was under in the 80s.
But the real winner of the humorous sibling rivalry comment is this, the 944 is a better car because of the HVAC controls.
Now to add a bit of fuel to the fire. Look at the sizes of the 991 and 928 then look at their profiles. It's remarkable how the new 991 and 928 are extremely close in size and shape. The big difference is the windshield rake.
1) Heritage be damned, a 911 guy calling out the VW parts bin aspects of the 944 and referring to it as the RWD VW Golf.
2) A 911 guy calling a 944 a rust bucket. (Man talk about the pot calling the kettle black.)
3) Engine heritage be damned, a 944 guy calling a 928 guy, gay.
4) A 914 guy saying the 944 isn't a real Porsche.
5) Everyone conveniently forgetting the pricing, exchange rate and competition conundrum Porsche was under in the 80s.
But the real winner of the humorous sibling rivalry comment is this, the 944 is a better car because of the HVAC controls.
Now to add a bit of fuel to the fire. Look at the sizes of the 991 and 928 then look at their profiles. It's remarkable how the new 991 and 928 are extremely close in size and shape. The big difference is the windshield rake.
12-09-2013, 11:43 AM
#92
Three Wheelin'
it's a funny thing Lart,
as bad a design as the 911 is, the 986/987/Cayman is quite good.
near 50/50, no drive shaft, short exhaust.
I'd like to see 2~3 more inches between the back of the seats and the firewall,
but the cars are still good for women under 5' 9".
now, all they need to do is get Nissan on the line to build them an engine.
as bad a design as the 911 is, the 986/987/Cayman is quite good.
near 50/50, no drive shaft, short exhaust.
I'd like to see 2~3 more inches between the back of the seats and the firewall,
but the cars are still good for women under 5' 9".
now, all they need to do is get Nissan on the line to build them an engine.
Go check out races with old 911's, the engine is in the right place, over the rear wheels. In the NNJR SCCA autox's, 911s get the FTD more often than I'd like....
12-09-2013, 11:55 AM
#93
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I wasn't aware of that. wow.
and are you saying 4" longer than the '96 993 or the water-cooled 996s, etc?
with my seat only pitched down slightly, I'm fine while driving...
still, at only 5' 8", I feel cramped once I pull into a rest stop or Dunkin Donuts...
and are you saying 4" longer than the '96 993 or the water-cooled 996s, etc?
with my seat only pitched down slightly, I'm fine while driving...
still, at only 5' 8", I feel cramped once I pull into a rest stop or Dunkin Donuts...
12-09-2013, 11:55 AM
#94
Three Wheelin'
And was the 944 "detuned"? Not in my opinion.
How many 300+hp 951s are driven 50,000miles? How about 150,000+? Do they last very long?? Chances are our modded 951s are driven very infrequently, or require a lot a maintenance. If Porsche were to release the 951 with 300+ hp, just imagine how bad of a reputation it would have for reliability? Just because the engine has the ability to produce a lot more power, somewhat reliably, doesnt mean that it's life expectancy isnt compromised somewhat. Please take into account that the engine has to be durable, drive in temperature extremes, and endure poor maintenance throughout its lifetime.
Ask yourself this. Is the 930 "detuned" at 282hp? It was in the same boat as the 951. Perform the same bolt on mods on a 930 that we do on 951s, next thing you know, you have a very easy 400+Hp with a REASONABLE amount of lag.
How many 300+hp 951s are driven 50,000miles? How about 150,000+? Do they last very long?? Chances are our modded 951s are driven very infrequently, or require a lot a maintenance. If Porsche were to release the 951 with 300+ hp, just imagine how bad of a reputation it would have for reliability? Just because the engine has the ability to produce a lot more power, somewhat reliably, doesnt mean that it's life expectancy isnt compromised somewhat. Please take into account that the engine has to be durable, drive in temperature extremes, and endure poor maintenance throughout its lifetime.
Ask yourself this. Is the 930 "detuned" at 282hp? It was in the same boat as the 951. Perform the same bolt on mods on a 930 that we do on 951s, next thing you know, you have a very easy 400+Hp with a REASONABLE amount of lag.
12-09-2013, 11:59 AM
#95
Three Wheelin'
The 996 and 986 are basically the same car from the doors forward, so in order to have a mid engine design with a reasonable amount of interior space, it had to be lengthened 4". Longer wheel bases make cars feel stable during long fast corners, but hurt for courses with a lot of quick transitions. If youve every been to an autoX, youd notice those guys with the short wheel base, open wheel race cars having a hell of a time keeping the car in control on the longer sweeping corners
12-09-2013, 12:05 PM
#96
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And was the 944 "detuned"? Not in my opinion.
How many 300+hp 951s are driven 50,000miles? How about 150,000+? Do they last very long?? Chances are our modded 951s are driven very infrequently, or require a lot a maintenance. If Porsche were to release the 951 with 300+ hp, just imagine how bad of a reputation it would have for reliability? Just because the engine has the ability to produce a lot more power, somewhat reliably, doesnt mean that it's life expectancy isnt compromised somewhat. Please take into account that the engine has to be durable, drive in temperature extremes, and endure poor maintenance throughout its lifetime.
Ask yourself this. Is the 930 "detuned" at 282hp? It was in the same boat as the 951. Perform the same bolt on mods on a 930 that we do on 951s, next thing you know, you have a very easy 400+Hp with a REASONABLE amount of lag.
How many 300+hp 951s are driven 50,000miles? How about 150,000+? Do they last very long?? Chances are our modded 951s are driven very infrequently, or require a lot a maintenance. If Porsche were to release the 951 with 300+ hp, just imagine how bad of a reputation it would have for reliability? Just because the engine has the ability to produce a lot more power, somewhat reliably, doesnt mean that it's life expectancy isnt compromised somewhat. Please take into account that the engine has to be durable, drive in temperature extremes, and endure poor maintenance throughout its lifetime.
Ask yourself this. Is the 930 "detuned" at 282hp? It was in the same boat as the 951. Perform the same bolt on mods on a 930 that we do on 951s, next thing you know, you have a very easy 400+Hp with a REASONABLE amount of lag.
12-09-2013, 12:34 PM
#97
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And was the 944 "detuned"? Not in my opinion.
How many 300+hp 951s are driven 50,000miles? How about 150,000+? Do they last very long?? Chances are our modded 951s are driven very infrequently, or require a lot a maintenance. If Porsche were to release the 951 with 300+ hp, just imagine how bad of a reputation it would have for reliability? Just because the engine has the ability to produce a lot more power, somewhat reliably, doesnt mean that it's life expectancy isnt compromised somewhat. Please take into account that the engine has to be durable, drive in temperature extremes, and endure poor maintenance throughout its lifetime.
Ask yourself this. Is the 930 "detuned" at 282hp? It was in the same boat as the 951. Perform the same bolt on mods on a 930 that we do on 951s, next thing you know, you have a very easy 400+Hp with a REASONABLE amount of lag.
How many 300+hp 951s are driven 50,000miles? How about 150,000+? Do they last very long?? Chances are our modded 951s are driven very infrequently, or require a lot a maintenance. If Porsche were to release the 951 with 300+ hp, just imagine how bad of a reputation it would have for reliability? Just because the engine has the ability to produce a lot more power, somewhat reliably, doesnt mean that it's life expectancy isnt compromised somewhat. Please take into account that the engine has to be durable, drive in temperature extremes, and endure poor maintenance throughout its lifetime.
Ask yourself this. Is the 930 "detuned" at 282hp? It was in the same boat as the 951. Perform the same bolt on mods on a 930 that we do on 951s, next thing you know, you have a very easy 400+Hp with a REASONABLE amount of lag.
Now very few on this board have achieve a reliable 300rwhp 951 and squeeze 35-40K miles, I am one of those few, you Lee are not. The key word is tuning.
12-09-2013, 12:58 PM
#98
Three Wheelin'
Your logic is not only flawed but screwed as well, 25 years of technology would have passed by, think evo, wrx years of development. The 944 engine would have been refined by now.
Now very few on this board have achieve a reliable 300rwhp 951 and squeeze 35-40K miles, I am one of those few, you Lee are not. The key word is tuning.
Now very few on this board have achieve a reliable 300rwhp 951 and squeeze 35-40K miles, I am one of those few, you Lee are not. The key word is tuning.
My logic isnt screwed or flawed, Both the 944 turbo and the 930 both had 50-75hp to be easily gained by adding tuning, upping boost and freeing up the intake and exhaust.
Most people agree here that stock 951s are a lot more reliable than modified, would you agree or disagree? I would say that Porsche built both the 930 and the 951 at their respective power levels making longevity, not power, a priority.
If anything, the real victims of detuning in the name of marketing are the "Gayster and Gayman", as you affectionately call them. Neither of them get an engine with the power same displacement as a 911, even though it would require very little modification to fit. By the time they decided to use a 3.4 engine in the midship cars, the carrera S was already a 3.8 engine....totally unfair.
12-09-2013, 01:55 PM
#99
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Touche', the water cooled k26s did last forever. Smokey 930s were a common sight in porsche shops...
I see youre a big fanatic of the 951, so am I. My father imported a grey market 1985 951, back in 1985, and had to wait until 1986 to start the federalization and EPA paperwork... My mother drove it with dealer plates and it was one of the first cars I came to know as a child, the car stayed in the family for years. I worked on 944s and rebuilt cylinder heads when the timing belt broke on them in my dads shop as a teen...so my love for the car goes way back. I wish Porsche had continued developing the transaxle cars as corvette did with the C5,6, and now 7, but they dropped it for a new entry level car, the Boxster, after 1995. I never said the engine was junk.
My logic isnt screwed or flawed, Both the 944 turbo and the 930 both had 50-75hp to be easily gained by adding tuning, upping boost and freeing up the intake and exhaust.
Most people agree here that stock 951s are a lot more reliable than modified, would you agree or disagree? I would say that Porsche built both the 930 and the 951 at their respective power levels making longevity, not power, a priority.
If anything, the real victims of detuning in the name of marketing are the "Gayster and Gayman", as you affectionately call them. Neither of them get an engine with the power same displacement as a 911, even though it would require very little modification to fit. By the time they decided to use a 3.4 engine in the midship cars, the carrera S was already a 3.8 engine....totally unfair.
I see youre a big fanatic of the 951, so am I. My father imported a grey market 1985 951, back in 1985, and had to wait until 1986 to start the federalization and EPA paperwork... My mother drove it with dealer plates and it was one of the first cars I came to know as a child, the car stayed in the family for years. I worked on 944s and rebuilt cylinder heads when the timing belt broke on them in my dads shop as a teen...so my love for the car goes way back. I wish Porsche had continued developing the transaxle cars as corvette did with the C5,6, and now 7, but they dropped it for a new entry level car, the Boxster, after 1995. I never said the engine was junk.
My logic isnt screwed or flawed, Both the 944 turbo and the 930 both had 50-75hp to be easily gained by adding tuning, upping boost and freeing up the intake and exhaust.
Most people agree here that stock 951s are a lot more reliable than modified, would you agree or disagree? I would say that Porsche built both the 930 and the 951 at their respective power levels making longevity, not power, a priority.
If anything, the real victims of detuning in the name of marketing are the "Gayster and Gayman", as you affectionately call them. Neither of them get an engine with the power same displacement as a 911, even though it would require very little modification to fit. By the time they decided to use a 3.4 engine in the midship cars, the carrera S was already a 3.8 engine....totally unfair.
12-09-2013, 02:34 PM
#100
yeah, it looks like you are blocking him in the corners! 
Just kidding.
Having 'been there' I do find it funny when folks post DE track pictures. Since the lead car has to give a point by in order for the following car to pass it usually means that if there is a car behind you then you are holding them up!
Just kidding.Having 'been there' I do find it funny when folks post DE track pictures. Since the lead car has to give a point by in order for the following car to pass it usually means that if there is a car behind you then you are holding them up!
But since this whole thread is kind of tongue-in-cheek.... 
I always get a kick out of the, "My car beat a such-n-such at the track" threads... since they never take into consideration the most important part of the entire encounter: driver ability.
I've had both 996 and 997 GT3's give me the "point by" before. As a defender of the 944's reputation amongst my pro-911 friends, I sure would like that to have been because of the 944's superiority as a sports car over the GT3... but I think we know that's not the case!
Still, in this particular example with my photo ahead of the 930... I really was surprised how closely matched we were down the straights.
12-09-2013, 02:48 PM
#101
I think most Porsches, in general, fall apart more because of TIME than mileage. Heck there are lots of 951's here on this board that have less than 100k on them.
I absolutely believe a 951 can last 100k at 300hp so long as it's (a) regularly driven and (b) maintained properly.
I've put ~50k on my 951 in the 4.5 years I've owned it. Bought it with ~124k, it's now got somewhere around 175k on it. So far, any actual *problems* I've had with the car, have been age related, not power related. Crumbling electronics (harness and connectors, ground wires and connections), rubber seals and hoses that start to leak, etc.
And while I'm not *abusive*, the car does get used aggressively, with many autocrosses every year (x2 drivers since my wife and I share it), it's been through quite a few DE's, PLUS I commute in it on nice days in the summer.
Had these cars been produced with 300hp, and buyers back in the day actually DROVE them (to where they hit 100k within the first 10-15 years of life) I bet they'd have made it, easy. Problem is way too many people buy Porsches so they can sit in the garage and be looked at. The 944 has the double-whammy of being a "cheap" Porsche so by the 2nd or 3rd owner, neglect usually kicks in and they start to fall apart. We certainly have seen plenty of posts around here where some kid buys a 944 Turbo that's behind in maintenance, ignores it and spends his wad on new go-fast parts... then the car blows up or quits running and he passes it on to the next guy...
12-09-2013, 04:30 PM
#102
Three Wheelin'
Kind of a flawed argument. Hell how many PORSCHES (not just 951s) are even driven to 50,000 miles??
I think most Porsches, in general, fall apart more because of TIME than mileage. Heck there are lots of 951's here on this board that have less than 100k on them.
I absolutely believe a 951 can last 100k at 300hp so long as it's (a) regularly driven and (b) maintained properly.
I've put ~50k on my 951 in the 4.5 years I've owned it. Bought it with ~124k, it's now got somewhere around 175k on it. So far, any actual *problems* I've had with the car, have been age related, not power related. Crumbling electronics (harness and connectors, ground wires and connections), rubber seals and hoses that start to leak, etc.
And while I'm not *abusive*, the car does get used aggressively, with many autocrosses every year (x2 drivers since my wife and I share it), it's been through quite a few DE's, PLUS I commute in it on nice days in the summer.
Had these cars been produced with 300hp, and buyers back in the day actually DROVE them (to where they hit 100k within the first 10-15 years of life) I bet they'd have made it, easy. Problem is way too many people buy Porsches so they can sit in the garage and be looked at. The 944 has the double-whammy of being a "cheap" Porsche so by the 2nd or 3rd owner, neglect usually kicks in and they start to fall apart. We certainly have seen plenty of posts around here where some kid buys a 944 Turbo that's behind in maintenance, ignores it and spends his wad on new go-fast parts... then the car blows up or quits running and he passes it on to the next guy...
I think most Porsches, in general, fall apart more because of TIME than mileage. Heck there are lots of 951's here on this board that have less than 100k on them.
I absolutely believe a 951 can last 100k at 300hp so long as it's (a) regularly driven and (b) maintained properly.
I've put ~50k on my 951 in the 4.5 years I've owned it. Bought it with ~124k, it's now got somewhere around 175k on it. So far, any actual *problems* I've had with the car, have been age related, not power related. Crumbling electronics (harness and connectors, ground wires and connections), rubber seals and hoses that start to leak, etc.
And while I'm not *abusive*, the car does get used aggressively, with many autocrosses every year (x2 drivers since my wife and I share it), it's been through quite a few DE's, PLUS I commute in it on nice days in the summer.
Had these cars been produced with 300hp, and buyers back in the day actually DROVE them (to where they hit 100k within the first 10-15 years of life) I bet they'd have made it, easy. Problem is way too many people buy Porsches so they can sit in the garage and be looked at. The 944 has the double-whammy of being a "cheap" Porsche so by the 2nd or 3rd owner, neglect usually kicks in and they start to fall apart. We certainly have seen plenty of posts around here where some kid buys a 944 Turbo that's behind in maintenance, ignores it and spends his wad on new go-fast parts... then the car blows up or quits running and he passes it on to the next guy...
A later euro 930 makes 330hp out of a 3.3l engine, and the later 951s make 247 hp out of a 2.5l engine. Both were just a tad shy of 100hp/liter, so I'd say they were both released with horsepower appropriate for their engine size, wouldn't you?
You make some valid points on how many owners go installing go fast goodies on their car, completely ignore maintenance, and then come on the forums complaining about how unreliable the 951 is when it falls apart. I was just trying to speculate less popular reasons why Porsche didnt release the 951 with 300hp, I assume longevity.
12-09-2013, 04:39 PM
#103
You make some valid points on how many owners go installing go fast goodies on their car, completely ignore maintenance, and then come on the forums complaining about how unreliable the 951 is when it falls apart. I was just trying to speculate less popular reasons why Porsche didnt release the 951 with 300hp, I assume longevity.
12-09-2013, 04:49 PM
#104
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Oh lee, the 968 turbo Rs had to ran with restrictor plates to keep it down it put down more torque than the 928gts and 911tt of it's time. It ran with a 8 valves head 3l block
12-09-2013, 04:51 PM
#105
Race Car
Biggest determinant of horsepower? Valve area. Edge 930, by 43%
Weight? Edge 930, by what about 20%?
The 951S may have been detuned, but if it was, I bet the flagship was even moreso.