data search - cost to get 500rwhp
02-25-2009, 02:59 PM
#196
The Impaler
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The limits of what you can do with leaf springs and a pushrod engine.
NASCAR pushes limits.
Don't get me wrong great car the Corvette for what it is. But it isn't in the same league as a GT2 or GT3 as far as innovation, build quality, and over all quality. A corvette is a great case study of what exactly you can do with old tech.
The Clarkson DVD Heaven and Hell where he compares European and American cars is a great piece if you watch it in the context of what the American car industry is missing.
NASCAR pushes limits.
Don't get me wrong great car the Corvette for what it is. But it isn't in the same league as a GT2 or GT3 as far as innovation, build quality, and over all quality. A corvette is a great case study of what exactly you can do with old tech.
The Clarkson DVD Heaven and Hell where he compares European and American cars is a great piece if you watch it in the context of what the American car industry is missing.
Nascar engines have higher pistons speeds than f1 cars, honda motors have higher piston speeds than a CGT and make more power per liter
The leaf springs in the corvette are a great design. Made of carbon fiber, lighter than a coilover suspension, and the results are great.
I would counter what your argument by saying there is only so far you can go with a flat six that is mounted incorrectly.
PS: about that dvd: You do remember his favorite car was the Ford GT which uses the motor out of an F-150. Similar to the backyard built "Simple" gt-40 that demolished the competition at lemans.
02-25-2009, 03:06 PM
#197
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All your other points are valid. And the C5 and C6 are amazing performers. But when compared to the competition they are the bang for the buck winner. They have drawbacks like the PP interior and the flat seats and bulky shifters.
We can all agree to disagree. But I would argue that the consumer has spoken and GM lost.
02-25-2009, 03:10 PM
#198
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Que!?!
All your other points are valid. And the C5 and C6 are amazing performers. But when compared to the competition they are the bang for the buck winner. They have drawbacks like the PP interior and the flat seats and bulky shifters.
We can all agree to disagree. But I would argue that the consumer has spoken and GM lost.
All your other points are valid. And the C5 and C6 are amazing performers. But when compared to the competition they are the bang for the buck winner. They have drawbacks like the PP interior and the flat seats and bulky shifters.
We can all agree to disagree. But I would argue that the consumer has spoken and GM lost.
02-25-2009, 03:15 PM
#199
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Say what you want, but all through history simplicity has won races. More technologically advanced doesn't mean crap in the pits
Nascar engines have higher pistons speeds than f1 cars, honda motors have higher piston speeds than a CGT and make more power per liter
The leaf springs in the corvette are a great design. Made of carbon fiber, lighter than a coilover suspension, and the results are great.
I would counter what your argument by saying there is only so far you can go with a flat six that is mounted incorrectly.
PS: about that dvd: You do remember his favorite car was the Ford GT which uses the motor out of an F-150. Similar to the backyard built "Simple" gt-40 that demolished the competition at lemans.
Nascar engines have higher pistons speeds than f1 cars, honda motors have higher piston speeds than a CGT and make more power per liter
The leaf springs in the corvette are a great design. Made of carbon fiber, lighter than a coilover suspension, and the results are great.
I would counter what your argument by saying there is only so far you can go with a flat six that is mounted incorrectly.
PS: about that dvd: You do remember his favorite car was the Ford GT which uses the motor out of an F-150. Similar to the backyard built "Simple" gt-40 that demolished the competition at lemans.
I want to like American cars. I really do. I would have a Z06 given the opportunity. All I am saying is that things could be better and poor decisions have led them down this road. When GM's best effort is the corvette ZR1 which is a super impressive car you have to take note. But put that against the best efforts of other companies and it is just another sports car. And for me that is not what it should be.
We are way OT. I just get really irritated talking about GM. They should be showing the world how a company should be run and instead they are showing the world that maybe you shouldn't fly your corporate jet to DC to ask for money.
02-25-2009, 03:19 PM
#200
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But the average Corvette buyer probably doesn't know the difference between OHC engine and a push rod. They leave that up to us whacko's to debate on the interwebs.
02-25-2009, 03:25 PM
#201
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I also wouldn't say the ZR-1 is just another sports car... I mean I think the thing is fugly and I would rather have a gt-3, but it's a beast. It can hold it's own against any car another manufacturer produces today.
I don't think that being more technologically advanced always makes something "Better".
Some of the best cars in history have been bred from a simple way of thinking. The A/C cobra. The GT-40. The Corvette Z06. The Lotus Elise.
Lambo's are really technologically advanced but murc's are still fat slow pigs on the track
02-25-2009, 03:28 PM
#202
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And they should because it is a awesome car for the money and it is amazing what you can do with refined old technology.
But the average Corvette buyer probably doesn't know the difference between OHC engine and a push rod. They leave that up to us whacko's to debate on the interwebs.
But the average Corvette buyer probably doesn't know the difference between OHC engine and a push rod. They leave that up to us whacko's to debate on the interwebs.
02-25-2009, 03:29 PM
#203
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ORLY?
how often do you hear of SBC's in normal trim failing?
GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum...
do tell about the bearingless case plz
how often do you hear of SBC's in normal trim failing?
GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum...
do tell about the bearingless case plz
"GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum..."
The current Corvette has won LeMans, several times, as well as Sebring and a TON of other races and series titles. It's a hell of a great machine.
Does it compare to our engines, well they are both car engines, so sort of, BUT they are really apples and oranges.
I'm not a fan, to say the least, of hybrids. However, I might be inclined to buy a good Vette, if the opportunity presented itself.
I think most of us would. The last eight or ten years have been awfully good for the ole vette.
I just wouldn't cram an LSX engine into a Porsche. I like my Porsche for it's "German-ness".
02-25-2009, 03:35 PM
#204
The Impaler
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For those of you, who are arguing that GM is failing due to a lack of innovation, please read the comment posted by the 19 year old, above. specifically, the following,
"GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum..."
The current Corvette has won LeMans, several times, as well as Sebring and a TON of other races and series titles. It's a hell of a great machine.
Does it compare to our engines, well they are both car engines, so sort of, BUT they are really apples and oranges.
I'm not a fan, to say the least, of hybrids. However, I might be inclined to buy a good Vette, if the opportunity presented itself.
I think most of us would. The last eight or ten years have been awfully good for the ole vette.
I just wouldn'
t cram an LSX engine into a Porsche. I like my Porsche for it's "German-ness".
"GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum..."
The current Corvette has won LeMans, several times, as well as Sebring and a TON of other races and series titles. It's a hell of a great machine.
Does it compare to our engines, well they are both car engines, so sort of, BUT they are really apples and oranges.
I'm not a fan, to say the least, of hybrids. However, I might be inclined to buy a good Vette, if the opportunity presented itself.
I think most of us would. The last eight or ten years have been awfully good for the ole vette.
I just wouldn'
t cram an LSX engine into a Porsche. I like my Porsche for it's "German-ness".
For the cost of doing a really awesome swap I'd rather just add a c5 to my stable and have both.
02-25-2009, 03:41 PM
#205
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I agree that the corvette is a great car. I just want it to be better.
02-25-2009, 04:11 PM
#206
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Originally Posted by Lorax
The leaf springs in the corvette are a great design. Made of carbon fiber, lighter than a coilover suspension, and the results are great.
For those of you, who are arguing that GM is failing due to a lack of innovation, please read the comment posted by the 19 year old, above. specifically, the following,
"GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum..."
The current Corvette has won LeMans, several times, as well as Sebring and a TON of other races and series titles. It's a hell of a great machine.
"GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum..."
The current Corvette has won LeMans, several times, as well as Sebring and a TON of other races and series titles. It's a hell of a great machine.
the Vette is an amazing car...obviously in terms of bang-for-the-buck...what other $45k car comes with 430HP and weighs barely over 3000lbs? a vette will dust a boxster (which costs $5k more for a base model) every day of the week, in a straight line or around a track (with someone that knows how to drive in both cars)...
while lots could be said about the interior quality, keep in mind you are buying a sports car to flog and drive and have fun with...the 944 has cardboard door panels and a cardboard dash on earlies...no one complains about that.
if you want to be coddled while driving quickly, get a GT car like a 928 or a modern 911..
02-25-2009, 04:37 PM
#207
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Yeah after reading through of some of this it alowya makes me chuckle when I read that GM, and the LS motors are poor engineering....GM doesn't improve technology...blah....blah...blah......
Remember, the LT-5 motor? Co-engineered with Lotus and built by Merc? Aluminum block, 32V DOHC? What did GM learn? That the motors became maintenance nightmares, an engine that was expensive to produce, even worse to rebuild ....Sounds just like just like Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Aston doesn't it?
So they decided to go back to the drawing board and came back with the LS motors and If that doesn’t seem like much, consider that improvement comes from an engine with: slightly less displacement, smaller physical size, only one cam, only two valves-per-cylinder, pushrod valve gear, less weight and better fuel mileage. Low tech to the opinions on Rennlist? Maybe. Effective from a race and street car perspective? Absolutely. Parts at midnight on a Friday? No problem. Special tools or $120 /hr labor rates to repair them? Not necessary.
Sounds to me thay took a lo-tech concept and got a high-tech result.
Now they have a 100K car walking on 250K cars from a performance perspective. Next we'll hear about cheap interiors.....a dime a dozen....I see them every day......
Oh yeah, did I mention that the ls motors, at least on the Corvette is also designated as a LEV engine?
Remember, the LT-5 motor? Co-engineered with Lotus and built by Merc? Aluminum block, 32V DOHC? What did GM learn? That the motors became maintenance nightmares, an engine that was expensive to produce, even worse to rebuild ....Sounds just like just like Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Aston doesn't it?
So they decided to go back to the drawing board and came back with the LS motors and If that doesn’t seem like much, consider that improvement comes from an engine with: slightly less displacement, smaller physical size, only one cam, only two valves-per-cylinder, pushrod valve gear, less weight and better fuel mileage. Low tech to the opinions on Rennlist? Maybe. Effective from a race and street car perspective? Absolutely. Parts at midnight on a Friday? No problem. Special tools or $120 /hr labor rates to repair them? Not necessary.
Sounds to me thay took a lo-tech concept and got a high-tech result.
Now they have a 100K car walking on 250K cars from a performance perspective. Next we'll hear about cheap interiors.....a dime a dozen....I see them every day......
Oh yeah, did I mention that the ls motors, at least on the Corvette is also designated as a LEV engine?
02-25-2009, 05:24 PM
#208
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For those of you, who are arguing that GM is failing due to a lack of innovation, please read the comment posted by the 19 year old, above. specifically, the following,
"GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum..."
The current Corvette has won LeMans, several times, as well as Sebring and a TON of other races and series titles. It's a hell of a great machine.
Does it compare to our engines, well they are both car engines, so sort of, BUT they are really apples and oranges.
I'm not a fan, to say the least, of hybrids. However, I might be inclined to buy a good Vette, if the opportunity presented itself.
I think most of us would. The last eight or ten years have been awfully good for the ole vette.
I just wouldn't cram an LSX engine into a Porsche. I like my Porsche for it's "German-ness".
"GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum..."
The current Corvette has won LeMans, several times, as well as Sebring and a TON of other races and series titles. It's a hell of a great machine.
Does it compare to our engines, well they are both car engines, so sort of, BUT they are really apples and oranges.
I'm not a fan, to say the least, of hybrids. However, I might be inclined to buy a good Vette, if the opportunity presented itself.
I think most of us would. The last eight or ten years have been awfully good for the ole vette.
I just wouldn't cram an LSX engine into a Porsche. I like my Porsche for it's "German-ness".
02-25-2009, 06:27 PM
#209
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02-25-2009, 06:35 PM
#210
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For those of you, who are arguing that GM is failing due to a lack of innovation, please read the comment posted by the 19 year old, above. specifically, the following,
"GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum..."
The current Corvette has won LeMans, several times, as well as Sebring and a TON of other races and series titles. It's a hell of a great machine.
Does it compare to our engines, well they are both car engines, so sort of, BUT they are really apples and oranges.
I'm not a fan, to say the least, of hybrids. However, I might be inclined to buy a good Vette, if the opportunity presented itself.
I think most of us would. The last eight or ten years have been awfully good for the ole vette.
I just wouldn't cram an LSX engine into a Porsche. I like my Porsche for it's "German-ness".
"GM's engines is not the reason it is failing...the redundant lineups and ridiculous labor agreements, along with poor management overall is....however this is a discussion for another thread, in another forum..."
The current Corvette has won LeMans, several times, as well as Sebring and a TON of other races and series titles. It's a hell of a great machine.
Does it compare to our engines, well they are both car engines, so sort of, BUT they are really apples and oranges.
I'm not a fan, to say the least, of hybrids. However, I might be inclined to buy a good Vette, if the opportunity presented itself.
I think most of us would. The last eight or ten years have been awfully good for the ole vette.
I just wouldn't cram an LSX engine into a Porsche. I like my Porsche for it's "German-ness".
