How about this Audi engine

 

noop, its crude as hell, but solid.

the 944 engine can be tuned, but it just has so little potential vs the cost of it. I just gave up new engine is what.. 5-10KG more but I bought my ls1 for 2000USD with ecu, harness etc, 50.000 miles, sold my 944T engine for 4500USD with ecu/harness, 60.000 miles aprox.

I just can't justify the cost, and the messiness of working on the engine.

my 2liter evo has about same power as my 944turbo S engine had, but with a much better curve. and 1500rpms more.

 

my unprofessional opionon is that the problem is that we are all "tuning" the 944 engine instead of making structural changes, re-engineering changes that really address the problems and make it a better, stronger, more capable engine.

 

no not really.... there are, and have been many engines that are done proper. The problem lies w/i the cost associated with it. Hell I admit I'm the cheapest **** here, and I won't dare go out on a limb and say that a 3.0l can be done for anywhere close to the ls1.

In my case it's more about the challenge w/i the confines of the platform. Having already built some pretty hefty engines (Domestic) in the past IMO it's best to understand the limitations and do the best with them. Trying to get the 3.0 Porsche to perform like a 3.0 toyota will never happen, and anyone is a fool to think it will.

Enjoy it for what it is and be proud of how much TQ these little 4 bangers do make.

 

still no one has addressed the reason why a 20v audi engine is better than a 16v 944 engine that has more displacement, they just say it is because the bottom end is strong... nothing specific. everyone is going on trial and error instead of a systematic approach.

to me most of the stuff that has been done to the 944 2.5 & 3.0 L engines is just bolt-on and lightning bandaids, not really making the engine itself any different.

 

^^^^^ Thats a nice Audi RS2 engine pic Olli

 

bore, stroke, head design, material in block etc. entire damn engine.

3+liter with steel sleeving, highly ported 16vhead with variocam etc, new cams, custom gear etc. ... high $$$ still can't run insane boost without detonation.

 

why can't it? cam/gears/$$ have nothing to do with not being able to run high boost.

 

I don't want to be rude but it's naive to think it's a matter of small and easy manufactured bits and pieces to create a 1000 hp engine based on a 944 n/a engine.

It's simple physics really. First, the 944 engine is an all aluminum engine. The block is simply not sturdy enough. Sure, a pinned girdle, deck plate etc. can help but it can only do so much.
The Audi block is rock solid compared to a 944 block!

Second, the Audi has another cylinder to spread out the loads on. And another set of intake and exhaust valves to breath through!

Combustion chamber sealing can be fixed, so can the valvetrain, oil pump and water pump in order to supply the rpm's needed (such as 9000 rpm). But the piston speed will be way up and considering how meaty a rod and piston combo needs to be in order to withstand 250 hp per hole it's not an easy task.
In order to do that the block needs to be sturdy. The alusil block is evidently flexing quite a lot at higher rpms and power levels.

If there's such a thing is a reliable 250 hp per cylinder all aluminum engine it'd be really interested in reading about it, honestly.
But in order to try, you would have to spend an insane amount of money and there would be no reason to start with a 944 engine because there's wouldn't be anything left of it.

 

Sorry Anders but I'm not sure what you base that on?
The 16v engines are pretty detonation resistant, what engines are you referring to?

 

What's insane boost and what is the actual reason in this discussion to have this power? What is the car going to be used for? If you're building a drag racer then sure this is all crazy talk as nobody is really going to do that with one of our motors. If you want a track car, then 1000hp is useless. So what do we want 1000hp for? Bragging rights?
As we know these little cars box above their weight division. 400whp in one of these is a quick car. Lighten it and do all the other stuff, put it on the track and you're running some good times.
I don't think anyone can argue that the V8 conversion is waaaay better bang for your buck. Guess it's just what you want under the hood.
A properly built 3+L 16v can run over 30psi if tuned properly and that's well over 500whp. Plenty enough.

 

here is an example of a 4,000HP 4 cylinder ALUMINUM block engine, so you can't say the problem is because the 944 block is aluminum:

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/02...gra/index.html

now, don't get me wrong, i'm not saying the 944 is like this engine, and i know this engine isnt meant to run all day long, but it also makes 4,000HP

so what needs to be done to RE-ENGINEER the 944 engine to make it handle higher boost to produce 600-1,000HP reliably

ive heard that powerhaus has done 450RWHP with 16v 944 engines, but this seems to be the practical limit...

to me it looks like you just have to make things stronger, balanced... what can be done? i don't really know but if we are creative and SYSTEMATIC and look at the examples of those 800hp civics then we can get somewhere.

 

yes, just bragging rights and pure fantasy for the fun of it

 

no, i'm saying its difficult to do, but the right thing to do is often hard at first

see the 4,000hp 4 cylinder ALUMINUM block above, its not about the material its about the construction... what's the audi block made of?
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/02...gra/index.html

this makes sense

did you read the link from earlier in this post?

probably insane

but it sounds like the audi just revs 3,000 RPM higher, thats why it's more powerful with less displacement.

now my question is, what makes a particular engine able to rev higher, say to 12,000 RPMs where the 944 can only rev to 6,000 RPMs?

 

I know of that engine and it has nothing to do in a discussion of production engines.
Let me get this straight.... just because a totally custom engine like that is made of aluminum, you totally ignore the 944's aluminum block as a source of problems????

What is your point? That if we create a totally new engine block from scratch it can be made to stand the power? Of course it can, but that's not exactly to "modify" an engine now is it?
This ridiculous discussion started with that you thought it was EASIER to modify a 944 N/A engine to take 1000 hp reliable than to fit an Audi 5 cylinder engine.
And now your talking about creating a whole new engine from scratch?
Anything can be done, more or less. But the money involved for a reliable 1000 hp 944 engine... I would take that money and buy a 997 turbo instead


I knew that this discussion were doomed from the beginning, I'm just dissapointed in myself for not ignoring it.