Rennlist Top 10 HP/TQ
09-12-2005, 07:44 PM
#421
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OT so sorry guys. John Vitesse, you have a PM. I just talked to David at Powerhaus. I just may have linked one of the best engine builders with one of the best tuners(you), with my car as a subject. 
09-12-2005, 08:22 PM
#422
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Good man Joe, that will be interesting! Get a 3" exhaust while you are there! And let John Vitesse try out a Stage 4-5-6-7-8 Turbo!
PS I saw those comments you mentioned by that "tuner" (stretching it). It was very poor form.
PS I saw those comments you mentioned by that "tuner" (stretching it). It was very poor form.
09-12-2005, 08:23 PM
#423
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Originally Posted by TurboTommy
Special Tool,
why don't you tell us why you think his timing is off.
How the hell do you know what his timing is anyway? Not to mention there's a difference between a 3.0L 8 valve and a 16 valve head.
The only thing I could think of is that you (and John from Vitesse) think he needs more advance for his larger displacement cylinders.
As far as his turbocharger is concerned, it doesn't matter how ancient you think it is; all that matters is can it flow enough CFM on the compressor side, and does the turbine side give the proper boost pressure/turbine inlet pressure relationship that will suite the end user. If this criteria can be met, it will not be any worse or better than a "more modern" unit. There might be small differences like surge line slope, small variances in value and location of peak effeciencies, etc; but these are quite minor.
Most european manufacturers still use "KKK" turbos. They're obviously not all stupid.
I, myself, have experimented with different configurations of exhaust on my 3.0L. One extreme example (for testing purposes) was no exhaust at all!
Conclusion: as long as your turbine housing has adequate flow, more than 2.5 inch exhaust will not net any more power!
I must admit, the 52 lb injector size has me a bit puzzled. I'm also using them and I don't run out of injector. As far as I've heard (from a couple of sources) these actually flow quite a bit more than their rating; and they're robust in that they can deal with high fuel pressures and running them up to 100 % duty cycle without problem. So, I don't know!
D'Fastest,
if one does some simple common sense mathematics (your displacement, your VE from the 4 valve head, and given your boost), I think you have one of the most real life hp figures in this thread. You ARE NOT leaving 100 ponies on the table! I wouldn't be gettin' your panties in a knot because of what others (and their somewhat...............ahem...............inflated numbers) suggest.
why don't you tell us why you think his timing is off.
How the hell do you know what his timing is anyway? Not to mention there's a difference between a 3.0L 8 valve and a 16 valve head.
The only thing I could think of is that you (and John from Vitesse) think he needs more advance for his larger displacement cylinders.
As far as his turbocharger is concerned, it doesn't matter how ancient you think it is; all that matters is can it flow enough CFM on the compressor side, and does the turbine side give the proper boost pressure/turbine inlet pressure relationship that will suite the end user. If this criteria can be met, it will not be any worse or better than a "more modern" unit. There might be small differences like surge line slope, small variances in value and location of peak effeciencies, etc; but these are quite minor.
Most european manufacturers still use "KKK" turbos. They're obviously not all stupid.
I, myself, have experimented with different configurations of exhaust on my 3.0L. One extreme example (for testing purposes) was no exhaust at all!
Conclusion: as long as your turbine housing has adequate flow, more than 2.5 inch exhaust will not net any more power!
I must admit, the 52 lb injector size has me a bit puzzled. I'm also using them and I don't run out of injector. As far as I've heard (from a couple of sources) these actually flow quite a bit more than their rating; and they're robust in that they can deal with high fuel pressures and running them up to 100 % duty cycle without problem. So, I don't know!
D'Fastest,
if one does some simple common sense mathematics (your displacement, your VE from the 4 valve head, and given your boost), I think you have one of the most real life hp figures in this thread. You ARE NOT leaving 100 ponies on the table! I wouldn't be gettin' your panties in a knot because of what others (and their somewhat...............ahem...............inflated numbers) suggest.
09-12-2005, 08:25 PM
#425
Rennlist Member
Yes it was. I went to the Powerhaus site. That's not even my dyno. It's another customer's car. They accidentally put it up. People shouldn't have to trash talk in order to make themselves look good. Especially when the information is false...
09-12-2005, 08:56 PM
#426
Rennlist Member
Turbo Tommy, I missed your post. Only seen it copied above. I appreciate your input as you are a very reputable source. Pablo Maslomian met me in the desert for an article he did on my car. He has been to your shop and loves your header system for our car. I saw you in European Car. So you don't think there's too much more to be had? I really appreciate your input...
09-12-2005, 10:21 PM
#428
Rennlist Member
D'fastest,
sorry to disappoint you, but you've got me mixed up with someone else.
However, I know enough to say that don't be fooled by exagerated claims even if they're presented in a form of a dyno sheet. Chassis dyno figures can vary by alot (which has been seen here), so I think it's silly to even bother with them.(I know this is an unpopular statement)
An engine can only make so much power given its displacement, VE, RPM potential, absolute manifold pressure, and temperature. Hp numbers that don't conform to this equation can't be right. You don't leave oodles of hp on the table because of lack of fine tuning. That's just ridiculus!
sorry to disappoint you, but you've got me mixed up with someone else.
However, I know enough to say that don't be fooled by exagerated claims even if they're presented in a form of a dyno sheet. Chassis dyno figures can vary by alot (which has been seen here), so I think it's silly to even bother with them.(I know this is an unpopular statement)
An engine can only make so much power given its displacement, VE, RPM potential, absolute manifold pressure, and temperature. Hp numbers that don't conform to this equation can't be right. You don't leave oodles of hp on the table because of lack of fine tuning. That's just ridiculus!
09-12-2005, 11:07 PM
#429
Banned
Posted by Turbo Tommy: You don't leave oodles of hp on the table because of lack of fine tuning.
I have to disagree with your comments. I have picked up over 80whp by fine tuning on a dyno. Dyno tuning is must for the aftermarket. I happen to think that dynos are very accurate. I have dynoed several different setups on 944 turbos. The numbers are not inflated. They tell the truth. Some just don't like the outcome when what they have doesn't work properly. Or they become exhausted because they can't get it right. Tuning is tricky. You have to spend the time on the dyno and be very familiar with how to change things on your car to get to the results your looking for. Dyno time is expensive. Learning how to tune is even more expensive. Most don't figure this into there performance package. Most of the dynos I have bin on vary by less than 5%. Enough OT lets get back to hp.
I have to disagree with your comments. I have picked up over 80whp by fine tuning on a dyno. Dyno tuning is must for the aftermarket. I happen to think that dynos are very accurate. I have dynoed several different setups on 944 turbos. The numbers are not inflated. They tell the truth. Some just don't like the outcome when what they have doesn't work properly. Or they become exhausted because they can't get it right. Tuning is tricky. You have to spend the time on the dyno and be very familiar with how to change things on your car to get to the results your looking for. Dyno time is expensive. Learning how to tune is even more expensive. Most don't figure this into there performance package. Most of the dynos I have bin on vary by less than 5%. Enough OT lets get back to hp.
09-12-2005, 11:16 PM
#430
Rennlist Member
Your right, I did confuse you. I don't know what I was thinking. Sorry. Jimbo is right, we should get back to the topic, hp, tq. We should start a new thread about the value of tuning.
09-12-2005, 11:58 PM
#431
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No, tuning is useless... No power to be had there.. Please don't start a tuning thread... It's hard to keep up with this thread 
09-13-2005, 12:03 AM
#432
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Originally Posted by TurboTommy
D'fastest,
sorry to disappoint you, but you've got me mixed up with someone else.
However, I know enough to say that don't be fooled by exagerated claims even if they're presented in a form of a dyno sheet. Chassis dyno figures can vary by alot (which has been seen here), so I think it's silly to even bother with them.(I know this is an unpopular statement)
An engine can only make so much power given its displacement, VE, RPM potential, absolute manifold pressure, and temperature. Hp numbers that don't conform to this equation can't be right. You don't leave oodles of hp on the table because of lack of fine tuning. That's just ridiculus!
sorry to disappoint you, but you've got me mixed up with someone else.
However, I know enough to say that don't be fooled by exagerated claims even if they're presented in a form of a dyno sheet. Chassis dyno figures can vary by alot (which has been seen here), so I think it's silly to even bother with them.(I know this is an unpopular statement)
An engine can only make so much power given its displacement, VE, RPM potential, absolute manifold pressure, and temperature. Hp numbers that don't conform to this equation can't be right. You don't leave oodles of hp on the table because of lack of fine tuning. That's just ridiculus!
09-13-2005, 12:24 AM
#433
Race Director
Thread Starter
Ummm you do leave HP on the table if you are not fine tuned... hours on the dyno has taught me that. Timing and AFR play a huge roll.
09-13-2005, 12:59 AM
#434
Rennlist Member
I don't know anything next to a lot of you guys but I do know that if I go with, say for example, a Motec system, I will get a substantial amount of power from it.
Some of you say no tuning
others say to tune
I don't know
Some of you say no tuning
others say to tune
I don't know
09-13-2005, 01:08 AM
#435
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The Motronic works just fine. Why do you want to go to Motec? To control larger injectors? We can handle 83# with Motronic.. The Motronic is an AWESOME system..
Changing engine management does not sole anything! If an engine is not tuned properly, you just tune it, not replace the engine management... The engine management is mainly to control Fuel and ignition.. The Motronic does both, and gives you knock control on top of it...
For ANY engine to make power, it must be tuned correctly..
Changing engine management does not sole anything! If an engine is not tuned properly, you just tune it, not replace the engine management... The engine management is mainly to control Fuel and ignition.. The Motronic does both, and gives you knock control on top of it...
For ANY engine to make power, it must be tuned correctly..