Cam timing inconsistant with each revolution
07-27-2010, 12:58 PM
#181
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07-27-2010, 01:21 PM
#182
07-27-2010, 01:57 PM
#183
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I'm always nervous about starting after doing a lot of work on the engine.
I'm usually tired, in a hurry to finish, and wonder: 'what did I forget'.
I've done so much work on the front end of the engine* that it's all a blur at times.
*Gotta be careful what you say around here - IE. development, testing, photos, experimentation
I'm usually tired, in a hurry to finish, and wonder: 'what did I forget'.
I've done so much work on the front end of the engine* that it's all a blur at times.
*Gotta be careful what you say around here - IE. development, testing, photos, experimentation
Ken!Thanks for the innovative products Ken, setting up the cams can't get any easer than with the Porken 32vlr
DaveK9
Last edited by davek9; 07-27-2010 at 02:15 PM.
07-27-2010, 03:18 PM
#184
Captain Obvious
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Oh for sure! Without it you are "flying blind". That alone is worth keeping the system. Since now it's more clear that the non factory system keeps the belt looser than the factory spec, it might take even less time for a streaching belt, running on a siezed pump, to jump. I was seconds away from popping the belt and if only had the temp gauge warning, I probably would not have shut the engine down in that instant. But the combination of first the loose belt warning followed by the temp warning trigerred a relfex in me to cut the ignition immediatelly.
Last edited by Imo000; 07-28-2010 at 12:08 AM.
07-27-2010, 03:24 PM
#185
Former Sponsor
Greg,
Nice post.
And I agree with your comment about pulling the pin too.
There is one thing I am wondering about though.
As of yet, for obvious reasons, none of the tensioners have caused a failure.
The failure is always caused be 1 of 3 things, tensioner bearing failing, waterpump failing (any of them), and of course overmilage/age of the belt.
However lets play a little devils advocate.
lets say you purchased new Porsche tensioner pulley from one of the big parts suppliers and installed it. In less than 10k miles that bearing failed and siezed destroying the timing belt, and thus bending valves.
I doubt that ANY of the parts suppliers would do anything other than give you a replacement of the part you purchased.
When I have in the past discussed the warranty of parts through our local Porsche dealer, and other locations that sell the Porsche OEM parts. I am always told the same thing, the part is warrantied for 2 years. But that warranty covered that part only, if it fails, its warranty does not cover anything else.
This is why shops carry their own insurance. Otherwise they could just rely on the manufacture of the parts to cover any damages that are inflicted due to a failed part they supplied.
I dont see Ken's product as being any different.
As well, Roger is the one doing most of the selling of these, and is supplying most of the rest of the componants. Lets say the tensioner roller failed and caused a problem, you would go to Roger, not Ken.
I am fairly sure that Roger would say that he would either refund you the cost of that part, or supply you with new at no cost. But that is where it would end.
In fact we ran into this instance on this board in the past, one fellow purchased an ign switch from Roger, it was installed and found to be DOA out of the box. Roger replaced the part without question. But the customer wanted Roger to pay for the part to be replaced. Roger did not do this, and everyone on the board agreed that this was completely unreasonable.
I am certain that should the same thing happen with a waterpump, and it did bend the valves. Roger would replace the pump right away. And while he would feel horrible about it, he would not be willing to pay to have the motor fixed. The same would go for all parts suppliers.
(not meaning to pick on you Rog).
Every part I use I personally inspect thoroughly, but a set of new motor mounts made it through, and I had to do that job twice.
Part of the other reason that parts suppliers are not that liable is that it is difficult to prove that nothing happened during both shipping, or installation of the product.
Nice post.
And I agree with your comment about pulling the pin too.
There is one thing I am wondering about though.
As of yet, for obvious reasons, none of the tensioners have caused a failure.
The failure is always caused be 1 of 3 things, tensioner bearing failing, waterpump failing (any of them), and of course overmilage/age of the belt.
However lets play a little devils advocate.
lets say you purchased new Porsche tensioner pulley from one of the big parts suppliers and installed it. In less than 10k miles that bearing failed and siezed destroying the timing belt, and thus bending valves.
I doubt that ANY of the parts suppliers would do anything other than give you a replacement of the part you purchased.
When I have in the past discussed the warranty of parts through our local Porsche dealer, and other locations that sell the Porsche OEM parts. I am always told the same thing, the part is warrantied for 2 years. But that warranty covered that part only, if it fails, its warranty does not cover anything else.
This is why shops carry their own insurance. Otherwise they could just rely on the manufacture of the parts to cover any damages that are inflicted due to a failed part they supplied.
I dont see Ken's product as being any different.
As well, Roger is the one doing most of the selling of these, and is supplying most of the rest of the componants. Lets say the tensioner roller failed and caused a problem, you would go to Roger, not Ken.
I am fairly sure that Roger would say that he would either refund you the cost of that part, or supply you with new at no cost. But that is where it would end.
In fact we ran into this instance on this board in the past, one fellow purchased an ign switch from Roger, it was installed and found to be DOA out of the box. Roger replaced the part without question. But the customer wanted Roger to pay for the part to be replaced. Roger did not do this, and everyone on the board agreed that this was completely unreasonable.
I am certain that should the same thing happen with a waterpump, and it did bend the valves. Roger would replace the pump right away. And while he would feel horrible about it, he would not be willing to pay to have the motor fixed. The same would go for all parts suppliers.
(not meaning to pick on you Rog).
Every part I use I personally inspect thoroughly, but a set of new motor mounts made it through, and I had to do that job twice.
Part of the other reason that parts suppliers are not that liable is that it is difficult to prove that nothing happened during both shipping, or installation of the product.
Couple of quick thoughts.
I think that the construction and pieces that Ken applied to his tensioner are very robust and see very little that is a problem. I do not expect it to fail.
However, it will...or parts associated with it will. (I also agree that things can potentially/will fail on the stock tensioner design.)
I also agree that suppliers of parts very seldon will step up and pay labor for a failed part, or pay for pieces that broke as a result of that failed part.
We, as shop owners, always end up paying for failures (labor and associated parts)....the "buck comes from us". There is simply no way out, for us. We get screwed, every time. I've replaced so many stinking water pumps, on my own nickel. that I don't even want to think how much money this has cost me.
Legally, if we wanted to go to the trouble, we could sue the supplier and they would have to sue the manufacturer, for the associated parts and labor. Most times they would have to pay. This is expensive and time consuming, so we hardly ever bother...it would cost us more than it would be worth. However, on "bigger events" we do seek remedy and we do get paid.
If a part has the ability to turn an entire engine into garbage...that's a bit more expensive than replacing a leaky water pump....and shops/individuals might/will seek remedy. Interestingly, most part suppliers/manufacturers that deal in this business do have insurance, but they hardly ever use it....too much trouble, rates go up,etc. They will pay the "little stuff" (bigger to us) out of their own pocket....just like we do.
Take this to the next step and say the part fails on the road, the car quits, and an accident results, killing or injuring someone. Now that's a completely different animal. They will use their insurance for this!
Same thing with his lift bars. Imagine a jack slips and someone gets squished....he might/probably will get sued.
My thought to Ken was sincere about having product liability insurance. You've got to CYA, these days. It's not very expensive, because it seldom gets used, for the little day to day stuff. It's used to cover yourself, for the really "big" events.
These are the things that Greg Nettles and I have to think about, on a daily basis. That's why we ask "technical" questions. We simply have to cover our own asses.
We know that the big parts supplier and manufacturers carry insurance. We know that if a big event occurs, we have them to back up our own insurance. However, when a little manufacturer doesn't have insurance to cover his own product, sure we might be able to get his house and assets, but is that going to be enough?
I can instantly think of half a dozen small manufacturers (in just the Porsche business) that are now gone and the people that owned them are ruined...just because they made something that failed and got "cleaned out". Some of their stuff seemed good and worked good for quite a few years before it showed its design defects (there was a tensioner design for the 911 engines that almost everyone used, back in the late 70's and early '80's. Seemed great. I installed many of them. The design defect showed up after a few years and every single one failed. The company went broke, of course, and I heard that the owner lost everything....this example applies almost directly to Ken's tensioner. I'm not saying it will, but if it did....wow!)
07-27-2010, 04:16 PM
#186
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Exactly Greg, the little stuff we eat, we complain but we still do it because it is the simplest thing to do.
Bigger stuff we have to have help on, just the way the game is played.
It is like the signs out in the parking lot of a grocery store that says they are not responsible for any cart damage, how many times has that one been proven wrong?
So for some one to say that their liability ends with just another free part is incorrect.
If a part breaks and destroys a motor, we are not going to put another one in just like it and hope for the best.
Bigger stuff we have to have help on, just the way the game is played.
It is like the signs out in the parking lot of a grocery store that says they are not responsible for any cart damage, how many times has that one been proven wrong?
So for some one to say that their liability ends with just another free part is incorrect.
If a part breaks and destroys a motor, we are not going to put another one in just like it and hope for the best.
07-27-2010, 04:58 PM
#188
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GB wrote:
I hope people never get under the car when the jack is supporting the liftbar. Maybe Ken needs a warning sticker to cover all the dumb possibilities, like ladder makers have had to do.
Used with jackstands under the ends and a few other large, solid objects under the car in the event a jackstand fails, I don't see a problem with using the liftbars.
Same thing with his lift bars. Imagine a jack slips and someone gets squished....he might/probably will get sued.
Used with jackstands under the ends and a few other large, solid objects under the car in the event a jackstand fails, I don't see a problem with using the liftbars.
07-27-2010, 05:04 PM
#189
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Andrew,
I was trying to be "cute"........ie civil.
I think the sniping is Bull****, and do not think much more of the snipers. This time they are mostly "vendors" in one form or another and the beauty of this place (though it sometimes takes too long) is that the silent majority vote with their wallets.
In the meantime, the whining is "tedious".
I was trying to be "cute"........ie civil.
I think the sniping is Bull****, and do not think much more of the snipers. This time they are mostly "vendors" in one form or another and the beauty of this place (though it sometimes takes too long) is that the silent majority vote with their wallets.
In the meantime, the whining is "tedious".
07-27-2010, 05:09 PM
#190
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Andrew,
I was trying to be "cute"........ie civil.
I think the sniping is Bull****, and do not think much more of the snipers. This time they are mostly "vendors" in one form or another and the beauty of this place (though it sometimes takes too long) is that the silent majority vote with their wallets.
In the meantime, the whining is "tedious".
I was trying to be "cute"........ie civil.
I think the sniping is Bull****, and do not think much more of the snipers. This time they are mostly "vendors" in one form or another and the beauty of this place (though it sometimes takes too long) is that the silent majority vote with their wallets.
In the meantime, the whining is "tedious".
07-27-2010, 05:17 PM
#191
Former Sponsor
GB wrote:
I hope people never get under the car when the jack is supporting the liftbar. Maybe Ken needs a warning sticker to cover all the dumb possibilities, like ladder makers have had to do.
Used with jackstands under the ends and a few other large, solid objects under the car in the event a jackstand fails, I don't see a problem with using the liftbars.
I hope people never get under the car when the jack is supporting the liftbar. Maybe Ken needs a warning sticker to cover all the dumb possibilities, like ladder makers have had to do.
Used with jackstands under the ends and a few other large, solid objects under the car in the event a jackstand fails, I don't see a problem with using the liftbars.
You think the ladder people put all those stickers on a ladder because they want to? Hell no, it is because they have lost cases and the attorneys make them put them on....and they have huge insurance!
I have a friend who works for the Los Angeles PD. He had been to a car/jack "squishing", just before he got off work and he came by here. We were talking about it and he said I would be totally amazed at how many "squishings" there are, just in LA, every year. "Mind boggling", in his words.
CYA. There's to many attorneys looking for it.
07-27-2010, 07:31 PM
#192
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Where is that picture of the guy working under the truck propped up by a couple pieces of lumber, when ya want it?!
Andrew, I hear ya. I have no objection to using the stick in most cases.
I hesitate to lead with it when dealing with long standing members of our community who only occasionally get snotty.
I mean, everybody has a bad day once in a while......
"I acted like a douche, I 'polergise" goes a long way, and yeah, the bigger man ALWAYS leads off with it.
Bigs will attest that intellectual honesty takes effort and constant discipline.
It can be worth it.... The guys who devolve their arguements into name calling and adhominum attacts lose credibility in ANY debate., but the dumb ones don't know this.
Andrew, I hear ya. I have no objection to using the stick in most cases.
I hesitate to lead with it when dealing with long standing members of our community who only occasionally get snotty.
I mean, everybody has a bad day once in a while......
"I acted like a douche, I 'polergise" goes a long way, and yeah, the bigger man ALWAYS leads off with it.
Bigs will attest that intellectual honesty takes effort and constant discipline.
It can be worth it.... The guys who devolve their arguements into name calling and adhominum attacts lose credibility in ANY debate., but the dumb ones don't know this.
07-27-2010, 07:59 PM
#193
Drifting
Anyone got a Porsche part number for the factory TB tensioner with Air Pump bracket delete?
Not that I want or need one, just wondering if such a tensioner exists. Such a small market, that its unlikely the EPA would ever go after companies that sell equipment for defeating smog devices?
Not that I want or need one, just wondering if such a tensioner exists. Such a small market, that its unlikely the EPA would ever go after companies that sell equipment for defeating smog devices?
07-27-2010, 08:12 PM
#194
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No, at least not production part. Even those early MY cars which do not have air pump need bracket for fan belt free wheel.
07-27-2010, 08:18 PM
#195
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