Black Widow back on track!! (for a little bit)
10-08-2009, 03:40 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
Ouch, that sucks. Really sorry to see that. Does the oil filter have a bypass? If so I hope you will thoroughly check downstream of the filter. In any event bits were probably churned up and sprayed throughout the crankcase. Damn.
[Edit] Bill beat me to it.
[/Edit]
[Edit] Bill beat me to it.
[/Edit]
10-08-2009, 03:50 AM
#62
Team Owner
Wow that sucks , This is an interesting failure I hope more pictures are taken as the tear down continues, this info might help prevent another failure.
The crank trigger pins can probably be tapped into the P/plate they are not used for firing the ignition, and when the clutch is pushed down the crank comes back and then the pins hit the lower bell cover.
Good luck, on this investigation, my guess is that a total tear down will be required as well as flushing out the oil tank/cooler and possibly the accusump
The crank trigger pins can probably be tapped into the P/plate they are not used for firing the ignition, and when the clutch is pushed down the crank comes back and then the pins hit the lower bell cover.
Good luck, on this investigation, my guess is that a total tear down will be required as well as flushing out the oil tank/cooler and possibly the accusump
10-08-2009, 04:28 AM
#63
I've thought that it would be kind of interesting to be able to monitor when the filter was bypassing some of the oil. I kind of suspect that some people wouldn't be too happy with what they saw if that monitoring were being done though.
10-08-2009, 11:32 AM
#65
Team Owner
I wonder how much damage has been done to the oil pump with all of that metal.
Bummer, I guess this is a ..................pull the engine again.
Bummer, I guess this is a ..................pull the engine again.
10-08-2009, 11:35 AM
#66
Rennlist Member
ARRRRG is right! man, that just sucks. Thats why Im always talking about keeping things SIMPLE! There is no real need for this kind of contraption. If it goes back in, lets make sure its REALLLY locked down! I hate to see suff like that.
You got a great attitude about it, so hang in there. after all, its all just turning bolts! Heck, look what I have to do this winter!!!
mk
You got a great attitude about it, so hang in there. after all, its all just turning bolts! Heck, look what I have to do this winter!!!
mk
10-08-2009, 11:40 AM
#67
Rennlist Member
Larry, seriously consider going to 850s and 500s at least. Ive driven Andersons , Fans, and of course mine for many years and found that my 750 /475 is a little soft, both front and rear. Anderson found that 1000s were too much up front. You want a set up you can grow in to and if you have too much spring up front, its really hard to progress lap time-wise.
In my book, i do what has been proven to work and then fine tune from there!
best of luck with the build.
mk
In my book, i do what has been proven to work and then fine tune from there!
best of luck with the build.
mk
Hello Tim - I'll give you a call before I migrate back to Phoenix.
Hello Brian - Thanks for the offer of help. Unfortunately, I'll be spending the winter in Phoenix, but should have the suspension mods in place within the next 4 weeks. No time to get to the track before leaving. We're flairing the fenders to accept 335 by 18s on 12s at all 4 corners. The front springs (new 600#) are being changed to 1000#. We're leaving the rear 400# for now. Can't switch between the front and rear as they are 10" vs 12". Went with Motorsports' front shock tops in order to drop the car and then machined in spherical bearings. As the headlights have been removed, we plan to get some air flow through the empty holes and the rest from the splitter and naca ducts if we can find the right place to put them. Seems like everything is inter-related, so we can't really say what the next generation will look like.
Hello Stan Shaw-
We talked about your shock/spring set-up some months ago, when I was trying to make some suspension decisions. You kindly sent some pictures of your set-up and some pics of other set-ups. I've spent a lot of time on 928Racing.net, soaking in all of the various approaches to those things common to my car. It's been a big help.
Thanks again.
Also, someone commented on the roll cage. It's kind of a NASCAR style and is made from 1.75" x .120" DOM to SCCA specs. I'd be curious to know what the poster saw that gave the impression is wasn't very good.
As a side note, I haven't yet found a name for the GT. Maybe someone can come up with something catchy.
Hello Brian - Thanks for the offer of help. Unfortunately, I'll be spending the winter in Phoenix, but should have the suspension mods in place within the next 4 weeks. No time to get to the track before leaving. We're flairing the fenders to accept 335 by 18s on 12s at all 4 corners. The front springs (new 600#) are being changed to 1000#. We're leaving the rear 400# for now. Can't switch between the front and rear as they are 10" vs 12". Went with Motorsports' front shock tops in order to drop the car and then machined in spherical bearings. As the headlights have been removed, we plan to get some air flow through the empty holes and the rest from the splitter and naca ducts if we can find the right place to put them. Seems like everything is inter-related, so we can't really say what the next generation will look like.
Hello Stan Shaw-
We talked about your shock/spring set-up some months ago, when I was trying to make some suspension decisions. You kindly sent some pictures of your set-up and some pics of other set-ups. I've spent a lot of time on 928Racing.net, soaking in all of the various approaches to those things common to my car. It's been a big help.
Thanks again.
Also, someone commented on the roll cage. It's kind of a NASCAR style and is made from 1.75" x .120" DOM to SCCA specs. I'd be curious to know what the poster saw that gave the impression is wasn't very good.
As a side note, I haven't yet found a name for the GT. Maybe someone can come up with something catchy.
10-08-2009, 02:09 PM
#68
Race Director
Thread Starter
Larry, seriously consider going to 850s and 500s at least. Ive driven Andersons , Fans, and of course mine for many years and found that my 750 /475 is a little soft, both front and rear. Anderson found that 1000s were too much up front. You want a set up you can grow in to and if you have too much spring up front, its really hard to progress lap time-wise.
In my book, i do what has been proven to work and then fine tune from there!
best of luck with the build.
mk
In my book, i do what has been proven to work and then fine tune from there!
best of luck with the build.
mk
Keep in mind that Larry's 928 is a full interior with AC + cage car...it was built for ORR....its still light due to the Z06 motor at 3250lbs....but he might want the heavier springs for the extra 500lbs...
I'll find out more about my motor (or lack therof) shortly
10-08-2009, 02:14 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
I drive to the tracks, sometimes going real fast with 3500lbs in the tires, and it is quite a firm ride at 750s and 475s in the rear. It would be quite bumpy and probably not as safe at very high speeds with 1000s in the front. I guess someone would have to calculate if the extra 250lb of car weight justifies a 250lb spring increase on just the front corners. If it is at all a street car, its probably better to be on the softer side.
Let's hear more about the car. what are your thougths about tearing the engine down AGAIN!!!! Im bummed for you. you need some good luck, SOON!
mk
Let's hear more about the car. what are your thougths about tearing the engine down AGAIN!!!! Im bummed for you. you need some good luck, SOON!
mk
10-08-2009, 02:31 PM
#70
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
DUUUDE that is a cool piece of mechanical work, the LS7 engine ... I think it looks a lot more tight in there than the original engine and I thought THAT was tight. Looks cool though!
Well....after 6 long months I finally got the Black Widow version 2.0 back on track.....one small issue with the battery ground getting loose killing everything..but ran pretty good....engine has power and sounds great.....did not burn any oil at all and NO oil in the breather-catch can at all either....
The new clutch was very stiff and the tranny was extremely balky for some reason...so I did most laps in 4th gear only....but still managed some decent times and the engine pulls cleanly even at 2500rpm in the slow corners....
Still managed to take my dad around for a couple sessions and he got a kick out of that!
Then the BAD NEWS..................had a nice session going (4th of the day) pacing a supercharged NSX when I hit the rumbles pretty good at turn 11...then something broke or got loose in the clutch or TT....horrible noise after that...that kept getting worse as I headed back to the pits....ended up being really loud and vibrating badly...which seemed to be right at the TT ahead of the shifter?
I'll post a video showing the before-after something broke so you guys can say what you think it is?
Also a really sweet LS7 650hp 928 showed up....very custom install....nice ride....
heres the pics
The new clutch was very stiff and the tranny was extremely balky for some reason...so I did most laps in 4th gear only....but still managed some decent times and the engine pulls cleanly even at 2500rpm in the slow corners....
Still managed to take my dad around for a couple sessions and he got a kick out of that!
Then the BAD NEWS..................had a nice session going (4th of the day) pacing a supercharged NSX when I hit the rumbles pretty good at turn 11...then something broke or got loose in the clutch or TT....horrible noise after that...that kept getting worse as I headed back to the pits....ended up being really loud and vibrating badly...which seemed to be right at the TT ahead of the shifter?
I'll post a video showing the before-after something broke so you guys can say what you think it is?
Also a really sweet LS7 650hp 928 showed up....very custom install....nice ride....
heres the pics
10-08-2009, 02:36 PM
#71
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Brian that's friggin insane that a stuopid thing like a tray would cause this havoc. I think you will need to take a very close look at the entire system, it should be possible to flush all that crap out pre-filter and who cares about the oil pump, that is cheap to replace, plus you have no oil cooler to have to deal with (clean). I think your important point here of inspection as you say, are the bearings. Certainly want to after cleaning up etc, flush everything several times ...
10-08-2009, 02:43 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
doesnt he have the oil cooler (external) now? wouldnt that need to be flushed out too?
what a mess. I cant believe that thing grenaded! I guess the oil forces are pretty high whipping around the crank at 6500rpm that close to the moving parts. I kind of like the 6500rpm whip. its like a poor man's squirter system.
mk
what a mess. I cant believe that thing grenaded! I guess the oil forces are pretty high whipping around the crank at 6500rpm that close to the moving parts. I kind of like the 6500rpm whip. its like a poor man's squirter system.
mk
Brian that's friggin insane that a stuopid thing like a tray would cause this havoc. I think you will need to take a very close look at the entire system, it should be possible to flush all that crap out pre-filter and who cares about the oil pump, that is cheap to replace, plus you have no oil cooler to have to deal with (clean). I think your important point here of inspection as you say, are the bearings. Certainly want to after cleaning up etc, flush everything several times ...
10-08-2009, 03:25 PM
#73
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Hate to be the harbinger of bad news, but with Dennis' motor we found metal all through the Accusump, oil cooler, embedded in every bearing and around & inside the lifters. We could not flush the stock in-radiator oil cooler - we could see metal trapped inside it despite repeated flushes. Draining the Accusump and oil cooler may give you an early clue as to how widely the metal was distributed.
10-08-2009, 03:37 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Once a filter loses flow due to debris, the bypass will run wide open and metal will be everywhere, including accusump, coolers, lifters, etc. there is engine oil flowing until the engine stops turning.
Marc
Marc
10-08-2009, 03:47 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
Condolances Brian-
It made my stomach turn, too. So Sorry. But I don't see how you can avoid a teardown, given the bypass filter. The last thing you would want is to clean it up a little, and then find that there were more pieces floating around the internals.
Unfortunately, we're all just one funny noise away from a complete failure, if we keep them on the track. Call it the price of admission.
About the springs-
Hypercoil 2.5s are pretty cheap, so having to go up or down, based on feel and performance, really isn't an issue. Experimenting in order to find the right shocks, however, is a much more involved and expensive proposition. Right now the car has single internally adjustable Konis. I'll be considering lots of shock options down the road, after completing the current changes. And, when the time is right, hope to hear from the group.
It made my stomach turn, too. So Sorry. But I don't see how you can avoid a teardown, given the bypass filter. The last thing you would want is to clean it up a little, and then find that there were more pieces floating around the internals.
Unfortunately, we're all just one funny noise away from a complete failure, if we keep them on the track. Call it the price of admission.
About the springs-
Hypercoil 2.5s are pretty cheap, so having to go up or down, based on feel and performance, really isn't an issue. Experimenting in order to find the right shocks, however, is a much more involved and expensive proposition. Right now the car has single internally adjustable Konis. I'll be considering lots of shock options down the road, after completing the current changes. And, when the time is right, hope to hear from the group.