Please help me get this clutch working properly!!
07-02-2009, 03:16 PM
#92
Rennlist Member
Ive read EVERY word of your posts.
Im just amazed now that you have quantified you "wear" statement to be .5mm. That is just crazy talk.
as far as the pictures go, there is no visible wear. you have to see them up close to determine this. the pictures are at an angle and does not show the resolution nessesary to see the lack of wear. certain casting, stamping clues are visable . Its all in the car now, but I carefully examined them before install.
ALSO, scot got a new new one from 928intl. it looked brand new. his clutch was adusted all the way back from the shop and didnt work. But then again, why would it???? so, I adjusted it to 1mm and he is a happy camper.
The ONLY way the all the way technique will work, is if you get a little extra pull from your master cylinder on the pressure plate retraction.
mk
Im just amazed now that you have quantified you "wear" statement to be .5mm. That is just crazy talk.
as far as the pictures go, there is no visible wear. you have to see them up close to determine this. the pictures are at an angle and does not show the resolution nessesary to see the lack of wear. certain casting, stamping clues are visable . Its all in the car now, but I carefully examined them before install.
ALSO, scot got a new new one from 928intl. it looked brand new. his clutch was adusted all the way back from the shop and didnt work. But then again, why would it???? so, I adjusted it to 1mm and he is a happy camper.
The ONLY way the all the way technique will work, is if you get a little extra pull from your master cylinder on the pressure plate retraction.
mk
Mark, this is how you are acting in this thread:
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You're talking a lot but you are not opening your eyes. It seems to me that you are the one who is seeing what you want to see, or not seeing what you don't want to see.
I did not say that we couldn't adjust the forks even if wear is present. I said that you're wrong, they do wear.
Maybe if we didn't have the added factor of you having made an incorrect statement, you could see it. However, now you seem to be so heavily invested in being right that you will ignore facts or make up new ones to avoid admitting that you are wrong. You even go so far as to say that the photographic evidence must be discounted, for no good reason except it doesn't fit your theory.
The reason the question of wear is important is that with a new IP, "all the way back" yields an appropriate gap of near 1mm. With worn forks, "All the way back" can result in too large of a gap(5) of near 1.5mm, resulting in drag of the rear disk against the PP.
[IMG]gif[/IMG]
You're talking a lot but you are not opening your eyes. It seems to me that you are the one who is seeing what you want to see, or not seeing what you don't want to see.
I did not say that we couldn't adjust the forks even if wear is present. I said that you're wrong, they do wear.
Maybe if we didn't have the added factor of you having made an incorrect statement, you could see it. However, now you seem to be so heavily invested in being right that you will ignore facts or make up new ones to avoid admitting that you are wrong. You even go so far as to say that the photographic evidence must be discounted, for no good reason except it doesn't fit your theory.
The reason the question of wear is important is that with a new IP, "all the way back" yields an appropriate gap of near 1mm. With worn forks, "All the way back" can result in too large of a gap(5) of near 1.5mm, resulting in drag of the rear disk against the PP.
07-02-2009, 03:27 PM
#93
Nordschleife Master
This is the dumbest thing I think I have EVER seen you post. No real offence intended.
But first off none of the clutch hydraulics pull.
Second off the hydraulics have absolutely NO affect on the all the way back method.
The all the way back method is supposed to work because of minimal distance spacing on the H adjusters. As they are moved by the intermediate friction plate when the clutch pedal is RELEASED. So when the clutch is engaged the force from the PP pushing the Int friction plate towards the flywheel is what moves those adjusters. This movement is limited by the thickness of the primary friction (clutch) disc. When this is done on a proper H adjuster the distance should be a hair over or around 1mm.
As the adjusters wear this does not work, this is what Dave is trying to explain.
If they do not work right from the factory on a NEW part, then the problem is that Porsche machined the H adjusters for that plate with too much clearance. Given the level of perfection and attention to tolerances on everything else I find this unlikely. But not impossible.
If you dispute this information then I will conclude you really dont have any technical idea as to how this works and would recommend that users that do not fully comprehend how something works not even read your posts.
07-02-2009, 03:27 PM
#94
Rennlist Member
Its amazing Im the only one with 150 race days on the same chassis with no issues, DNFs , engine blows, and over 200,000miles of combined street miles.
With Scots, add another 75 race days, with no issues under my guidence. Just lucky i guess.
I try to help, but there are those knit pickers that can find something to challenge.
mk
With Scots, add another 75 race days, with no issues under my guidence. Just lucky i guess.
I try to help, but there are those knit pickers that can find something to challenge.
mk
07-02-2009, 03:30 PM
#95
Its amazing Im the only one with 150 race days on the same chassis with no issues, DNFs , engine blows, and over 200,000miles of combined street miles.
With Scots, add another 75 race days, with no issues under my guidence. Just lucky i guess.
I try to help, but there are those knit pickers that can find something to challenge.
mk
With Scots, add another 75 race days, with no issues under my guidence. Just lucky i guess.
I try to help, but there are those knit pickers that can find something to challenge.
mk
07-02-2009, 03:36 PM
#96
Rennlist Member
Im done with you . You are clearly acting like an idiot now! seriously.
Yes, the master and slave cylinders create hydr. pressure to push a shaft that pushes a lever that PULLS the thowout bearing and presure plate rear ward to release contact friction on the discs on to the flywheel. ANY moron can get that from my post. So yes, the Hydr. system does create a "PULL". GEZZZ
and yes, if you have too large of a gap where the pressure plate and disc is not actively pushing on the H adjusters, you can get a little more "action" with more of a pull from the hydr. system. Again, Scots was near new, and too much gap. this allowed for the intermediate plate to drift rearward and keep contact with the pressure plate. If you pull harder on the pressure plate, it will release, as seen by an example with the video posted here on this thread of its action.
What you say , COULD be correct, if all the tollerances work out right. more unlikely , than likely.
This is the dumbest thing I think I have EVER seen you post. No real offence intended.
But first off none of the clutch hydraulics pull.
Second off the hydraulics have absolutely NO affect on the all the way back method.
The all the way back method is supposed to work because of minimal distance spacing on the H adjusters. As they are moved by the intermediate friction plate when the clutch pedal is RELEASED. So when the clutch is engaged the force from the PP pushing the Int friction plate towards the flywheel is what moves those adjusters. This movement is limited by the thickness of the primary friction (clutch) disc. When this is done on a proper H adjuster the distance should be a hair over or around 1mm.
As the adjusters wear this does not work, this is what Dave is trying to explain.
If they do not work right from the factory on a NEW part, then the problem is that Porsche machined the H adjusters for that plate with too much clearance. Given the level of perfection and attention to tolerances on everything else I find this unlikely. But not impossible.
Yes, the master and slave cylinders create hydr. pressure to push a shaft that pushes a lever that PULLS the thowout bearing and presure plate rear ward to release contact friction on the discs on to the flywheel. ANY moron can get that from my post. So yes, the Hydr. system does create a "PULL". GEZZZ
and yes, if you have too large of a gap where the pressure plate and disc is not actively pushing on the H adjusters, you can get a little more "action" with more of a pull from the hydr. system. Again, Scots was near new, and too much gap. this allowed for the intermediate plate to drift rearward and keep contact with the pressure plate. If you pull harder on the pressure plate, it will release, as seen by an example with the video posted here on this thread of its action.
What you say , COULD be correct, if all the tollerances work out right. more unlikely , than likely.
This is the dumbest thing I think I have EVER seen you post. No real offence intended.
But first off none of the clutch hydraulics pull.
Second off the hydraulics have absolutely NO affect on the all the way back method.
The all the way back method is supposed to work because of minimal distance spacing on the H adjusters. As they are moved by the intermediate friction plate when the clutch pedal is RELEASED. So when the clutch is engaged the force from the PP pushing the Int friction plate towards the flywheel is what moves those adjusters. This movement is limited by the thickness of the primary friction (clutch) disc. When this is done on a proper H adjuster the distance should be a hair over or around 1mm.
As the adjusters wear this does not work, this is what Dave is trying to explain.
If they do not work right from the factory on a NEW part, then the problem is that Porsche machined the H adjusters for that plate with too much clearance. Given the level of perfection and attention to tolerances on everything else I find this unlikely. But not impossible.
07-02-2009, 03:40 PM
#98
Rennlist Member
Fxxk you Tom, you have just proved yourself to be an axx.
Since ive run with SCCA, ive got many 2nd and 3rd places in the season championships. all races have always been 1st though 3rd place. occasionally a 4th or 5th. when things have gone wrong, ive always scored a finish in the race and that has happened about 4 times in 6 years of running with SCCA.
I have 6 wins against an unlimited field.
so, if winning is all that counts ANYONE in racing is in the wrong field. fortunately , racing is what is important. what place you come in is 2ndary as we all want win, but are not always able to for many reasons. If a racer viewed winning as the most important thing, along with their sponsors, there would only be 1 or 2 cars running in any race in the world.
You obviously dont race.
For this list and many that give the attention to my old 928, its not as important than being out there , month after year after year with a car that gives cars 4x its worth MAJOR headaches. But in the end, in an unlimited class, like ITE, im actually leading the championship points for the season as of now, coincidentially enough. against two of the most expensive cars you would ever be able to race against. All with a 25 year old car with a set of headers and the Rennlist stroker bottomend!
mk
Since ive run with SCCA, ive got many 2nd and 3rd places in the season championships. all races have always been 1st though 3rd place. occasionally a 4th or 5th. when things have gone wrong, ive always scored a finish in the race and that has happened about 4 times in 6 years of running with SCCA.
I have 6 wins against an unlimited field.
so, if winning is all that counts ANYONE in racing is in the wrong field. fortunately , racing is what is important. what place you come in is 2ndary as we all want win, but are not always able to for many reasons. If a racer viewed winning as the most important thing, along with their sponsors, there would only be 1 or 2 cars running in any race in the world.
You obviously dont race.
For this list and many that give the attention to my old 928, its not as important than being out there , month after year after year with a car that gives cars 4x its worth MAJOR headaches. But in the end, in an unlimited class, like ITE, im actually leading the championship points for the season as of now, coincidentially enough. against two of the most expensive cars you would ever be able to race against. All with a 25 year old car with a set of headers and the Rennlist stroker bottomend!
mk
07-02-2009, 03:46 PM
#99
Rennlist Member
Confused. When you finish more than half the laps, you get a finishing place.
2 alternator failures, brake line failure, 3 transmission linkage failures, all finishing all laps of the race, even two busted wheels after someone hit me. again, all laps completed, but 1 second off my normal lap times.
Thats 7 deal ending incidents where i finished the races, usually not losing any laps, but just time toward the end of the race where i had the problem. And thats out of 120 race days in the holbert machine.
2 alternator failures, brake line failure, 3 transmission linkage failures, all finishing all laps of the race, even two busted wheels after someone hit me. again, all laps completed, but 1 second off my normal lap times.
Thats 7 deal ending incidents where i finished the races, usually not losing any laps, but just time toward the end of the race where i had the problem. And thats out of 120 race days in the holbert machine.
07-02-2009, 04:02 PM
#100
Nordschleife Master
Im done with you . You are clearly acting like an idiot now! seriously.
Yes, the master and slave cylinders create hydr. pressure to push a shaft that pushes a lever that PULLS the thowout bearing and presure plate rear ward to release contact friction on the discs on to the flywheel. ANY moron can get that from my post. So yes, the Hydr. system does create a "PULL". GEZZZ
and yes, if you have too large of a gap where the pressure plate and disc is not actively pushing on the H adjusters, you can get a little more "action" with more of a pull from the hydr. system. Again, Scots was near new, and too much gap. this allowed for the intermediate plate to drift rearward and keep contact with the pressure plate. If you pull harder on the pressure plate, it will release, as seen by an example with the video posted here on this thread of its action.
What you say , COULD be correct, if all the tollerances work out right. more unlikely , than likely.
Yes, the master and slave cylinders create hydr. pressure to push a shaft that pushes a lever that PULLS the thowout bearing and presure plate rear ward to release contact friction on the discs on to the flywheel. ANY moron can get that from my post. So yes, the Hydr. system does create a "PULL". GEZZZ
and yes, if you have too large of a gap where the pressure plate and disc is not actively pushing on the H adjusters, you can get a little more "action" with more of a pull from the hydr. system. Again, Scots was near new, and too much gap. this allowed for the intermediate plate to drift rearward and keep contact with the pressure plate. If you pull harder on the pressure plate, it will release, as seen by an example with the video posted here on this thread of its action.
What you say , COULD be correct, if all the tollerances work out right. more unlikely , than likely.
Please choose your wording more carefully then. As you dont get more PULL from the Master cylinder. What you meant, but really didnt come out that way was, if we could get more actuation from the hydraulic system. This would in turn cause further disengagement action of the PP. Which in turn could allow the system to account for the additional space between the rear of the H adjusters and the intermediate plate stops.
Keep in mind though that what you propose should only be used with caution as if you actuate the PP too far you will bottom out the throw out bearing on the guide tube, and with too much pressure this could break the locating tabs holding the guide tube. Meaning alot of work. If the actuation continued much past that you could also pull the TOB right out of the pressure plate. Though I am not sure as to how much actuation would be needed for that to happen.
And dont worry its all good fun internet trolling..... I mean posting
And if I said something silly on the net, I would expect the people on here to make similar comments. I know you have seen posts about cars listed that were listed with AWD. And other really stupid things.
07-02-2009, 04:05 PM
#101
Nordschleife Master
But congrats none the less.
And dont take my critisism to heart MK, this is the most riled up I have ever seen you get BTW. I give many of the other members a hard time. Like all the times that Erik has called it a duelling clutch..............
07-02-2009, 04:05 PM
#102
Mark..seriously.. Im just saying.. to compete in a race and not have failures is not indicative that everything is working or adjusted properly. If you want to take it further, one could surmise that you may be taking it easy on your equipment. I am not saying that..I've watched your vids.. but one could surmise that..
07-02-2009, 04:09 PM
#103
Nordschleife Master
BTW Tom, you have a natural talent at this trolling business. I havent even seen BrendanC be able to get MK that riled up. And Brendan is a champ at that!!!!!!
07-02-2009, 04:15 PM
#104
Just for the record..I'm not here to bash Mark.. I really do appreciate the stuff he does out there in the SCCA with the 928.. People talk about him all the time (in a good way Mark.....) and the publicity he brings to the 928 is great.
I have an interest in this thead because I've been working on a double disc car for some time now and everything but the int. plate is new.. It's been adj. per MK 1mm method..lasts like one shift.. it's been pushed back..and clutch dropped to push forward..works for a bit..and then out of adj. etc..
I know the adj. lose the ability hold the int. plate in place under normal circumstances.. (I would call that wear). What I want to see is an actual solution short of find a new int. plate...big bucks...or taking my chances on a used one..
All this is one reason I haven't converted my track car to the double disk just yet...
and seriously Mark..I wasn't being an A$$ If you think so..I apologize in advance..
I have an interest in this thead because I've been working on a double disc car for some time now and everything but the int. plate is new.. It's been adj. per MK 1mm method..lasts like one shift.. it's been pushed back..and clutch dropped to push forward..works for a bit..and then out of adj. etc..
I know the adj. lose the ability hold the int. plate in place under normal circumstances.. (I would call that wear). What I want to see is an actual solution short of find a new int. plate...big bucks...or taking my chances on a used one..
All this is one reason I haven't converted my track car to the double disk just yet...
and seriously Mark..I wasn't being an A$$ If you think so..I apologize in advance..
07-02-2009, 04:16 PM
#105
Administrator - "Tyson"
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