Please help me get this clutch working properly!!
07-06-2009, 08:24 PM
#166
Rennlist Member
Dave, no need to get nasty.
As someone once said, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".
so, definitions:
Clutch engaged- This means the clutch pedal is pressed to the floor and you have engaged the clutch in a way that pulls back the pressure plate engages the drive release mecanism. this also means that Gap 5 is now closed and INT is resting rear ward on the H or Fork adjusters.
correct??
Clutch Disengaged - This means that the clutch pedal is released and the pressure plate in the cluch has engaged the drive line. this also means that the INT plate moves forward to press against a clutch disc and flywheel. I the H adjusters are in the way, they can move forward as well to the point where the INT plate and clutch disc contacts the flywheel. in otherwords, GAP 6 is closed.
Correct??
As someone once said, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".
so, definitions:
Clutch engaged- This means the clutch pedal is pressed to the floor and you have engaged the clutch in a way that pulls back the pressure plate engages the drive release mecanism. this also means that Gap 5 is now closed and INT is resting rear ward on the H or Fork adjusters.
correct??
Clutch Disengaged - This means that the clutch pedal is released and the pressure plate in the cluch has engaged the drive line. this also means that the INT plate moves forward to press against a clutch disc and flywheel. I the H adjusters are in the way, they can move forward as well to the point where the INT plate and clutch disc contacts the flywheel. in otherwords, GAP 6 is closed.
Correct??
With those statements you have gone way into this mode(and you're trying for the shoulders too):
07-06-2009, 08:34 PM
#167
Rennlist Member
Yeah, you're right. No need to get nasty. Everywhere in the world, a clutch is "engaged" when all friction surfaces and input output shafts are moving at the same speed; a clutch is "disengaged" when it is allowing the input and output to move at different speeds. Common nomenclature, or so I thought.
07-06-2009, 08:44 PM
#168
Rennlist Member
so basically , you dont know, no one does. But, you maybe right. maybe you have a version of the INT plate that is different. maybe they are all different, who knows, who cares. BUT, one thing for sure , they all operate the same way. give it 1mm gap and you will likely produce a well functioning INT plate and clutch. push it all the way back and you only have 1.1mm of gap and you probably will be ok as well. push it all the way back and you get 1.5mm, and you are probably going to have to do it over . 
Now, as far as my set up. The discs had this dimension after it was pushed all the way back to measure it. It also has this dimension after 2 race weekends when the INT plate is vibrated enough or tweaked enough to get in contact with the H adjusters and move them rear ward. as we saw in Scots, a simple dowel pin can stop this, but you need to set that up off the car, and it is perminant for the most part.
You and your girlfriend have not seen the part up close. it looks different in person and there is little evidence that anything is wearing. I will have better pictures next time that will show this. again, the gap is only 1.5mm
what are you talking about with the potential for wear based on slave cylinder pressure or springs? the springs provide a very light pressure ,it is independent of the master or slave cylinder. the slave action pulls the pressure plate back and the INT plate only moves rearward based on the flat spring pressure. that cant wear anything. the front side H stops are a flush contact and all that I have seen have left a little shadow of a mark that something was covering it, not contacting it keeping some of the dust off with its sub .5mm gap or so.
Dave, your last statement. PLEAZZZZZ! the INTplate always makes contact with the rear portion of the H adjusters. you are talking like someone that doesnt get how the system works fundamentally! The only way they cant touch is if it is set up with the 3-4mm range of adjustment of the H adjusters (not talking gap, talking range of movement ) and you had some 3mm thicker front clutch disc. Then, you might not ever have the INT plate touch the rear H adjusters. in real life, the pressure plate has enough pressure to push the front side of H adjusters and move them until contact is made. on the bench you can lean on the pressure plate and move the adjusters. the pressure plate has this kind of force and more for clamping force.
One of the things i thought of, was that when the engine free revs with clutch disengaged. (i.e. clutch pedal let out gap 6 is closed ) was that when or if, the clutch slips, it slips off the flywheel and INT plate. the force might be so great that it tweaks the INT in such a way that it buckles the flat springs and they force the INT plate outward rear ward to push on the H adjusters. the buckling could do two things. move the INT plate rearward and obviously lose contact with the front disc and flywheel, reducing its friction force. ask your girlfriend to explain what I mean there. (kidding!)
Anyway, that makes sense to me, expecially, since I had no issues with moving gap dimensions with the holbert car for 8 years!! then, i put in a stroker and suddenly it grows???? what was going on? its not in the clutch engaged (clutch pedal pushed in ) mode, because I bliped throttle constantly before. however, I did have massive clutch slip with the new motor. i fixed it with the higher clamping force pressure plate, but maybe the tweaking still happens and still allows for enough contact on the rear disc to not slip. Something to ponder......HMMMMMMMMMMM. However, I dont have ANY issues with gaps growing larger during street use and I'm still redlineing the car. Maybe during speed shifting, just before full clutch release, does this phenom happen. HMMMMMM
Now, as far as my set up. The discs had this dimension after it was pushed all the way back to measure it. It also has this dimension after 2 race weekends when the INT plate is vibrated enough or tweaked enough to get in contact with the H adjusters and move them rear ward. as we saw in Scots, a simple dowel pin can stop this, but you need to set that up off the car, and it is perminant for the most part.
You and your girlfriend have not seen the part up close. it looks different in person and there is little evidence that anything is wearing. I will have better pictures next time that will show this. again, the gap is only 1.5mm
what are you talking about with the potential for wear based on slave cylinder pressure or springs? the springs provide a very light pressure ,it is independent of the master or slave cylinder. the slave action pulls the pressure plate back and the INT plate only moves rearward based on the flat spring pressure. that cant wear anything. the front side H stops are a flush contact and all that I have seen have left a little shadow of a mark that something was covering it, not contacting it keeping some of the dust off with its sub .5mm gap or so.
Dave, your last statement. PLEAZZZZZ! the INTplate always makes contact with the rear portion of the H adjusters. you are talking like someone that doesnt get how the system works fundamentally! The only way they cant touch is if it is set up with the 3-4mm range of adjustment of the H adjusters (not talking gap, talking range of movement ) and you had some 3mm thicker front clutch disc. Then, you might not ever have the INT plate touch the rear H adjusters.
in real life, the pressure plate has enough pressure to push the front side of H adjusters and move them until contact is made. on the bench you can lean on the pressure plate and move the adjusters. the pressure plate has this kind of force and more for clamping force.One of the things i thought of, was that when the engine free revs with clutch disengaged. (i.e. clutch pedal let out gap 6 is closed
) was that when or if, the clutch slips, it slips off the flywheel and INT plate. the force might be so great that it tweaks the INT in such a way that it buckles the flat springs and they force the INT plate outward rear ward to push on the H adjusters. the buckling could do two things. move the INT plate rearward and obviously lose contact with the front disc and flywheel, reducing its friction force. ask your girlfriend to explain what I mean there. (kidding!)Anyway, that makes sense to me, expecially, since I had no issues with moving gap dimensions with the holbert car for 8 years!! then, i put in a stroker and suddenly it grows???? what was going on? its not in the clutch engaged (clutch pedal pushed in ) mode, because I bliped throttle constantly before. however, I did have massive clutch slip with the new motor. i fixed it with the higher clamping force pressure plate, but maybe the tweaking still happens and still allows for enough contact on the rear disc to not slip. Something to ponder......HMMMMMMMMMMM. However, I dont have ANY issues with gaps growing larger during street use and I'm still redlineing the car. Maybe during speed shifting, just before full clutch release, does this phenom happen. HMMMMMM
adjusted three, four if Andre ever comes bI have y. I will say one last time, measuring old parts cannot conclusively prove that there is no wear, especially if they start off with different dimensions for whatever reason. You don't know what your initial dimensions were so you can't prove anything by measuring the parts at this point(maybe you can prove that they all wear to 1.5mm). I don't know if my IP was Porsche OE, Sachs OEM, or what -- I do know what I saw though, 1.168mm(converted from 0.046") max gap on this particular plate. If even one is found that is different than others then you cannot assume all are the same.
Fine, a 1mm gap stands a very good chance of working. Agreed on that point.
Again, without knowing the initial measurement you are not proving a damn thing by measuring worn parts. If that part started with a ~1.16mm gap and it's now 1.5mm, then I'm right, but there is no proof to be had either way, not without measuring new parts.
Maybe for some reason the damn things just stop wearing at 1.5mm, due to limits of slave cyl. travel, int. spring pressure, etc. If that were the case then your methodology would completely miss it.
At this point it's not only baby Jesus, but all men of science that are crying. Even my girlfriend, when asked, said that the one fork looked worn compared to the other. How is it that you can't see something that even a girl with no training can see?
Footnote: I thought you said that that int. plate(pics in post #147) had had the forks adjusted "all the way to the rear" for the whole time that you've had it, until you turned your gargantuan intellect on the problem. Have you overlooked the possibility that that fork is not worn, because it was adjusted in a way such that the forks never contacted the IP?
Fine, a 1mm gap stands a very good chance of working. Agreed on that point.
Again, without knowing the initial measurement you are not proving a damn thing by measuring worn parts. If that part started with a ~1.16mm gap and it's now 1.5mm, then I'm right, but there is no proof to be had either way, not without measuring new parts.
Maybe for some reason the damn things just stop wearing at 1.5mm, due to limits of slave cyl. travel, int. spring pressure, etc. If that were the case then your methodology would completely miss it.
At this point it's not only baby Jesus, but all men of science that are crying. Even my girlfriend, when asked, said that the one fork looked worn compared to the other. How is it that you can't see something that even a girl with no training can see?
Footnote: I thought you said that that int. plate(pics in post #147) had had the forks adjusted "all the way to the rear" for the whole time that you've had it, until you turned your gargantuan intellect on the problem. Have you overlooked the possibility that that fork is not worn, because it was adjusted in a way such that the forks never contacted the IP?
Last edited by mark kibort; 07-06-2009 at 11:28 PM.
07-06-2009, 08:58 PM
#169
Rennlist Member
Thanks for removing that picture. 
yes, I think if I get in you car and said to you, "engage the clutch", you would push it in. semantics maybe. edit: Sorry about that one. You are right. However, you can see I was thinking the opposite based on pedal activation. Anyway...................
Hey, we are saying much of the same thing here. As i see it, its only about is there wear and does the wear even matter and is there a INT plate that has a different gap dimension when new. Hey, i have my theories. I also dont fully understand how the gap grows with more HP. I just gave my shot at that in the post before this one.
yes, I think if I get in you car and said to you, "engage the clutch", you would push it in. semantics maybe. edit: Sorry about that one. You are right. However, you can see I was thinking the opposite based on pedal activation. Anyway...................Hey, we are saying much of the same thing here. As i see it, its only about is there wear and does the wear even matter and is there a INT plate that has a different gap dimension when new. Hey, i have my theories. I also dont fully understand how the gap grows with more HP. I just gave my shot at that in the post before this one.
Yeah, you're right. No need to get nasty. Everywhere in the world, a clutch is "engaged" when all friction surfaces and input output shafts are moving at the same speed; a clutch is "disengaged" when it is allowing the input and output to move at different speeds. Common nomenclature, or so I thought.
Last edited by mark kibort; 07-07-2009 at 12:08 AM.
07-06-2009, 09:21 PM
#170
Rennlist Member
Please, things are bad enough already without making up BS nomenclature for "engaged" vs "disengaged"... let's go with the world standard. I have some things to do before I address your previous post. I invite you to correct it in the meantime so that matters do not become any more confused than they already are.
07-06-2009, 09:47 PM
#171
Rest in Peace
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bird lover in Sharpsburg
Posts: 9,903
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Some of this thread is very informative, and other parts are
Only a 11 year old with his first copy of "Hot Rod Magazine" might think that a clutch was disengaged when your foot is not pressing on the pedal.
Only a 11 year old with his first copy of "Hot Rod Magazine" might think that a clutch was disengaged when your foot is not pressing on the pedal.
07-06-2009, 11:48 PM
#172
Rennlist Member
I guess you could look at it both ways. If the clutch discs are engaged you have disengaged the clutch pedal.
Ok, you are right, I am wrong. Lets move on.
Anyway, like you say, it doesnt matter and only confuses things. on ward to the 1mm gap for adjustment.
mk
Ok, you are right, I am wrong. Lets move on.
Anyway, like you say, it doesnt matter and only confuses things. on ward to the 1mm gap for adjustment.
mk
Actually, if I had my foot off of the pedal, I would tell you "It already is engaged". Some people might be confused, and assume that because you told them to do something with the clutch that it should be in the opposite position of where it was when you said that. That doesn't make it right, any more than saying that the world is flat makes it flat.
Please, things are bad enough already without making up BS nomenclature for "engaged" vs "disengaged"... let's go with the world standard. I have some things to do before I address your previous post. I invite you to correct it in the meantime so that matters do not become any more confused than they already are.
Please, things are bad enough already without making up BS nomenclature for "engaged" vs "disengaged"... let's go with the world standard. I have some things to do before I address your previous post. I invite you to correct it in the meantime so that matters do not become any more confused than they already are.
Last edited by mark kibort; 07-07-2009 at 12:05 AM.
07-07-2009, 12:01 AM
#173
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
07-07-2009, 02:19 AM
#175
Rennlist Member
so basically , you dont know, no one does. But, you maybe right. maybe you have a version of the INT plate that is different. maybe they are all different, who knows, who cares. BUT, one thing for sure , they all operate the same way. give it 1mm gap and you will likely produce a well functioning INT plate and clutch. push it all the way back and you only have 1.1mm of gap and you probably will be ok as well. push it all the way back and you get 1.5mm, and you are probably going to have to do it over .
Now, as far as my set up. The discs had this dimension after it was pushed all the way back to measure it. It also has this dimension after 2 race weekends when the INT plate is vibrated enough or tweaked enough to get in contact with the H adjusters and move them rear ward. as we saw in Scots, a simple dowel pin can stop this, but you need to set that up off the car, and it is perminant for the most part.
You and your girlfriend have not seen the part up close. it looks different in person and there is little evidence that anything is wearing. I will have better pictures next time that will show this. again, the gap is only 1.5mm
You and your girlfriend have not seen the part up close. it looks different in person and there is little evidence that anything is wearing. I will have better pictures next time that will show this. again, the gap is only 1.5mm
One of the things i thought of, was that when the engine free revs with clutch disengaged. (i.e. clutch pedal let out gap 6 is closed ) was that when or if, the clutch slips, it slips off the flywheel and INT plate. the force might be so great that it tweaks the INT in such a way that it buckles the flat springs and they force the INT plate outward rear ward to push on the H adjusters. the buckling could do two things. move the INT plate rearward and obviously lose contact with the front disc and flywheel, reducing its friction force. ask your girlfriend to explain what I mean there. (kidding!)
Anyway, that makes sense to me, expecially, since I had no issues with moving gap dimensions with the holbert car for 8 years!! then, i put in a stroker and suddenly it grows???? what was going on? its not in the clutch engaged (clutch pedal pushed in ) mode, because I bliped throttle constantly before. however, I did have massive clutch slip with the new motor. i fixed it with the higher clamping force pressure plate, but maybe the tweaking still happens and still allows for enough contact on the rear disc to not slip. Something to ponder......HMMMMMMMMMMM. However, I dont have ANY issues with gaps growing larger during street use and I'm still redlineing the car. Maybe during speed shifting, just before full clutch release, does this phenom happen. HMMMMMM
) was that when or if, the clutch slips, it slips off the flywheel and INT plate. the force might be so great that it tweaks the INT in such a way that it buckles the flat springs and they force the INT plate outward rear ward to push on the H adjusters. the buckling could do two things. move the INT plate rearward and obviously lose contact with the front disc and flywheel, reducing its friction force. ask your girlfriend to explain what I mean there. (kidding!)Anyway, that makes sense to me, expecially, since I had no issues with moving gap dimensions with the holbert car for 8 years!! then, i put in a stroker and suddenly it grows???? what was going on? its not in the clutch engaged (clutch pedal pushed in ) mode, because I bliped throttle constantly before. however, I did have massive clutch slip with the new motor. i fixed it with the higher clamping force pressure plate, but maybe the tweaking still happens and still allows for enough contact on the rear disc to not slip. Something to ponder......HMMMMMMMMMMM. However, I dont have ANY issues with gaps growing larger during street use and I'm still redlineing the car. Maybe during speed shifting, just before full clutch release, does this phenom happen. HMMMMMM
07-07-2009, 01:52 PM
#179
Rennlist Member
Yes, I was thinking "activated" vs "engaged" but we agreed to drop this.
We all understand that the INT plate rests on the H adjusters when the clutch pedal is pushed in. (more correct term, clutch disengaged, ok?) anyway,
that force is spring pressure. no wear there.
Lets talk about the forces on the INT plate when it is not clamped down in that situation. I guess if you rev the engine a lot with the clutch pedal pushed in, and the INT plate vibrate, i suppose it could rub gently on the H adjusters. I also think as the clutch slips some distortion, caused by the flat springs acting on stopping the inertia of the INT plate, could cause some contact as well.
I think its the later, as I have never had issues the H adusters moving until I got the greater HP. there is 100ft-lbs more torque acting on the INT and flywheel now via the clutch discs. this, I feel, is acting on the INT plate and torquing on the flat springs.(which would create some movement rear ward due to their design and orientation)
as far as the solder measuring. I did that for a better visual effect. plus, its like a feeler gauge as I can very easily adjust its thicknes by flatting it out due to its softness. I have digital guages and dial indicators too. . Bottomline, the gap needs to be at 1mm. as it moves away, the spring pressure as light as it is,will not wear the ears of the H adjusters. see the wear marks of the H adjsters on the axis that holds it together. now, that copper looking color is wear. the forks dont wear measureably. certainly, you have already said that mine "looked" to be worn by 500microns. So, when I measure it to be 1.5mm again, what will you say then? Yes, we dont know what it started out at, but I have yet to see a INT plate with a max gap of 1.1. by the way, did you measure that 1.1 mm on the car installed, or off the car? The reason I ask, is that when installed , there is a maximum gap you can make base on the front disc side tollerances and size. in otherwords, i can lever the H adjusters open by moving the INT plate rear ward, but the pressure plate will push back until contact is made front side. you have to hold it open until it stops to measure it correctly, as I do when measuring a maximum gap when the clutch is installed on the car.
Ok, from now on. clutch engaged is clutch discs engaged, and interlocked pedal released, ok??? Lets put that one behind us.
mk
[QUOTE=SharkSkin;6710244]Fine, but please put that solder back in the electrical box where it belongs and borrow either a proper set of wire feeler gauges or a set of numbered drills, or use a proper indicator. None of this business of using silly putty to measure the gap!
I said nothing of the sort, I was speculating as to why the wear on the forks might decrease over time. If the gap is maxed and widening due to wear, the IP springs will exert slightly less pressure as the gap widens. If you're going to ask a question that calls for speculation, expect some guesses based on first principles.
QUOTE]
We all understand that the INT plate rests on the H adjusters when the clutch pedal is pushed in. (more correct term, clutch disengaged, ok?) anyway,
that force is spring pressure. no wear there.
Lets talk about the forces on the INT plate when it is not clamped down in that situation. I guess if you rev the engine a lot with the clutch pedal pushed in, and the INT plate vibrate, i suppose it could rub gently on the H adjusters. I also think as the clutch slips some distortion, caused by the flat springs acting on stopping the inertia of the INT plate, could cause some contact as well.
I think its the later, as I have never had issues the H adusters moving until I got the greater HP. there is 100ft-lbs more torque acting on the INT and flywheel now via the clutch discs. this, I feel, is acting on the INT plate and torquing on the flat springs.(which would create some movement rear ward due to their design and orientation)
as far as the solder measuring. I did that for a better visual effect. plus, its like a feeler gauge as I can very easily adjust its thicknes by flatting it out due to its softness. I have digital guages and dial indicators too.
. Bottomline, the gap needs to be at 1mm. as it moves away, the spring pressure as light as it is,will not wear the ears of the H adjusters. see the wear marks of the H adjsters on the axis that holds it together. now, that copper looking color is wear. the forks dont wear measureably. certainly, you have already said that mine "looked" to be worn by 500microns. So, when I measure it to be 1.5mm again, what will you say then? Yes, we dont know what it started out at, but I have yet to see a INT plate with a max gap of 1.1. by the way, did you measure that 1.1 mm on the car installed, or off the car? The reason I ask, is that when installed , there is a maximum gap you can make base on the front disc side tollerances and size. in otherwords, i can lever the H adjusters open by moving the INT plate rear ward, but the pressure plate will push back until contact is made front side. you have to hold it open until it stops to measure it correctly, as I do when measuring a maximum gap when the clutch is installed on the car.Ok, from now on. clutch engaged is clutch discs engaged, and interlocked pedal released, ok??? Lets put that one behind us.
mk
[QUOTE=SharkSkin;6710244]Fine, but please put that solder back in the electrical box where it belongs and borrow either a proper set of wire feeler gauges or a set of numbered drills, or use a proper indicator. None of this business of using silly putty to measure the gap!
I said nothing of the sort, I was speculating as to why the wear on the forks might decrease over time. If the gap is maxed and widening due to wear, the IP springs will exert slightly less pressure as the gap widens. If you're going to ask a question that calls for speculation, expect some guesses based on first principles.
QUOTE]
07-07-2009, 02:34 PM
#180
Nordschleife Master
It doesn't need to break to bend. Repeated moderate force will deform a metal.
No sliding wear, but there can be deformation that opens the gap.
As an example, the springs on these cars sag. No sliding, no blunt force trauma. The metal just slowly bends under forces it can easily handle without fracturing.
No sliding wear, but there can be deformation that opens the gap.
As an example, the springs on these cars sag. No sliding, no blunt force trauma. The metal just slowly bends under forces it can easily handle without fracturing.