Please help me get this clutch working properly!!
07-02-2009, 02:22 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
oh crymenny!!!!! AHHHHHHHH!!
If the H's wear, wouldnt the surface be a little worn, not coated in rust. I contend that, not only do the H's not wear, but gap is reduced by accumulation of rust and corrosion, as seen by both you Hs andmine. there is no clean surface there. anyway, small point. even if there was .1mm of wear, it wouldnt matter in our discussion and information for the future adjuster of the int plate.
Now, getting back to spring pressure. you can see how far you push the H adjusters back. the farther they are back, the less pressure the flat springs produce. Yes in installation, there will be some preload, to retract the int plate. BUT, if you have the "all the way back " technique employed, you can reduce those springs' effectiveness. I dont know if it is detectable, as I have adjusted the clutch when it had max gap, and didnt notice too much difference in retraction based on how anyone would normally shift, BUT its something that also should be mentioned.
the front disc will now wear that much, and if it does and you have the Hs adjusted properly, the front H aduster gap will always be a gap. in order to wear,it has to touch, right? if you have a .5mm gap in the rear, they will not tough until there is .5mm of wear on the discs. thats a LOT!!!!
And finally, the rear part of the "H" adusters have no forces on them to wear them other than the finger pressure of the flat springs. they slowely move back, even if you push the clutch in as fast as you possibly can. the INT plate rests on the H aduster "ears" with the force mentioned. It doesnt even make a sound when they touch it is so GENTLE. Thats why they will have no measureable wear.
let me summaraize all of this discussion.........
put clutch in
adjust the H adjusters back so that there is a 1mm gap.
Done.
drive for 100,000miles.
mk
Mark, I know you're not blind, and I know you're not stupid -- at least I THINK I know those things. Why you continue your failure to see the obvious even when it is less than a foot in front of your nose in 640x480 living color is beyond me. Clearly, you are still not paying attention.
The "forks" DO wear, they DO contact the IP on the front side as the front disk wears, the proof is in post #51 above. Forget about the measurements, look at the SHAPE of your worn fork vs my less-worn fork. If you can't see that yours have worn you need glasses(if that's not a 79 plate in the pic you provided, so be it, but the proof is in YOUR OWN PIC). If you can't see that the fork contacts the front of the IP in use you need glasses. The wear shown on your fork would certainly be measurable -- are you afraid to notice this because you have provided your own proof that you are wrong?
I agree that on an IP separate from the car, on the bench, the forks can be moved to the point where the springs on the IP are just floating but it CANNOT BE ASSEMBLED THIS WAY, nor can it operate this way in the car. The PP will push those adjusters forward until you have zero gap(6) and max gap(5). The springs will be compressed and they will cause the IP to move when the clutch is disengaged even if you cut the forks off entirely.
It is pointless to talk about how it behaves on the bench; you need to consider how it works as an assembly. As an assembly, the springs CANNOT be neutralized. It amazes me how with your alleged understanding of the system you can put forth such a ridiculous statement as fact. Your f=ma statement is meaningless; what I meant is, show how the springs can be neutralized and affect the speed of the clutch release AS AN ASSEMBLY.
If the H's wear, wouldnt the surface be a little worn, not coated in rust. I contend that, not only do the H's not wear, but gap is reduced by accumulation of rust and corrosion, as seen by both you Hs andmine. there is no clean surface there. anyway, small point. even if there was .1mm of wear, it wouldnt matter in our discussion and information for the future adjuster of the int plate.
Now, getting back to spring pressure. you can see how far you push the H adjusters back. the farther they are back, the less pressure the flat springs produce. Yes in installation, there will be some preload, to retract the int plate. BUT, if you have the "all the way back " technique employed, you can reduce those springs' effectiveness. I dont know if it is detectable, as I have adjusted the clutch when it had max gap, and didnt notice too much difference in retraction based on how anyone would normally shift, BUT its something that also should be mentioned.
the front disc will now wear that much, and if it does and you have the Hs adjusted properly, the front H aduster gap will always be a gap. in order to wear,it has to touch, right? if you have a .5mm gap in the rear, they will not tough until there is .5mm of wear on the discs. thats a LOT!!!!
And finally, the rear part of the "H" adusters have no forces on them to wear them other than the finger pressure of the flat springs. they slowely move back, even if you push the clutch in as fast as you possibly can. the INT plate rests on the H aduster "ears" with the force mentioned. It doesnt even make a sound when they touch it is so GENTLE. Thats why they will have no measureable wear.
let me summaraize all of this discussion.........
put clutch in
adjust the H adjusters back so that there is a 1mm gap.
Done.
drive for 100,000miles.
mk
Mark, I know you're not blind, and I know you're not stupid -- at least I THINK I know those things. Why you continue your failure to see the obvious even when it is less than a foot in front of your nose in 640x480 living color is beyond me. Clearly, you are still not paying attention.
The "forks" DO wear, they DO contact the IP on the front side as the front disk wears, the proof is in post #51 above. Forget about the measurements, look at the SHAPE of your worn fork vs my less-worn fork. If you can't see that yours have worn you need glasses(if that's not a 79 plate in the pic you provided, so be it, but the proof is in YOUR OWN PIC). If you can't see that the fork contacts the front of the IP in use you need glasses. The wear shown on your fork would certainly be measurable -- are you afraid to notice this because you have provided your own proof that you are wrong?
I agree that on an IP separate from the car, on the bench, the forks can be moved to the point where the springs on the IP are just floating but it CANNOT BE ASSEMBLED THIS WAY, nor can it operate this way in the car. The PP will push those adjusters forward until you have zero gap(6) and max gap(5). The springs will be compressed and they will cause the IP to move when the clutch is disengaged even if you cut the forks off entirely.
It is pointless to talk about how it behaves on the bench; you need to consider how it works as an assembly. As an assembly, the springs CANNOT be neutralized. It amazes me how with your alleged understanding of the system you can put forth such a ridiculous statement as fact. Your f=ma statement is meaningless; what I meant is, show how the springs can be neutralized and affect the speed of the clutch release AS AN ASSEMBLY.
07-02-2009, 02:28 PM
#77
Administrator - "Tyson"
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If the H's wear, wouldnt the surface be a little worn, not coated in rust. I contend that, not only do the H's not wear, but gap is reduced by accumulation of rust and corrosion, as seen by both you Hs andmine. there is no clean surface there. anyway, small point. even if there was .1mm of wear, it wouldnt matter in our discussion and information for the future adjuster of the int plate.
You must have missed my post where I said I have two IP with worn adjusters that will not hold the set position. After pushing the clutch in a few times the inner disc moves causing the clutch to drag.
This was tested multiple times using a bell housing cover with a huge hole in it allowing easy / fast adjusting of the disc. I was under the car while it was on a lift, running, with someone going through the gears using the clutch. I could see the gap closing with every clutch depression until there wasn't any gap left. Shut off the car, re-adjust the clutch and do it again. Same results.
All other parts were band new.
07-02-2009, 02:29 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
you are so fixated on the pictures seeing what you want to see. those are not wear elements, but casting differences. you can see side to side the angles on the sides are different. Its a tough angle to look from the picture. in person you can see they have seen no wear. I can measure the exact gap next time i adjust the clutch, but I took at feeler guage and it was around 1.4 mm.
I adjust it to 1mm gap . It doesnt really matter anyway. all you care about is the delta that it moves when the clutch is depressed. if you have a 1mm gap, you will allow the front disc and INT plate to retract from the flywheel . Its really that simple. you are really getting too wrapped up in the wear are. why dont you put some paint on the adjusters and see if it rubs off.
mk
I adjust it to 1mm gap . It doesnt really matter anyway. all you care about is the delta that it moves when the clutch is depressed. if you have a 1mm gap, you will allow the front disc and INT plate to retract from the flywheel . Its really that simple. you are really getting too wrapped up in the wear are. why dont you put some paint on the adjusters and see if it rubs off.
mk
07-02-2009, 02:34 PM
#79
Rennlist Member
HEY, back to the discussion Hacker my friend!! back!! come back!!!
We are talking about the H's ears, not the wear of the H adjuster HOLDER! The holder stud or rivet or whatever CERTAINLY wears. Did you miss the pages of discussion where I was pinning the adjusters? adjusting my H's, etc etc etc???????
yes that is another discussion all together. YOU DONT want them lubed up as Greg Brown has talked about. (part of his private email to me as well) you want those things stiff to move as possible. I think they should have been a bolt and nut with locktight!!!
anyway, scot had one that move too much. we pinne it , but the we couldnt get a good clamp of the adjusters. the new Int plate works fine. the shop did the manual technique and got it wrong. I adjusted it yet again. (an almost new INT plate that 928intl provided) It was adjusted at the track a few months ago and is working perfectly now .
yes, the adjuster clamps do wear, no doubt
the adjuster arms do not wear to any measureable degree.
mk
We are talking about the H's ears, not the wear of the H adjuster HOLDER! The holder stud or rivet or whatever CERTAINLY wears. Did you miss the pages of discussion where I was pinning the adjusters? adjusting my H's, etc etc etc???????
yes that is another discussion all together. YOU DONT want them lubed up as Greg Brown has talked about. (part of his private email to me as well) you want those things stiff to move as possible. I think they should have been a bolt and nut with locktight!!!
anyway, scot had one that move too much. we pinne it , but the we couldnt get a good clamp of the adjusters. the new Int plate works fine. the shop did the manual technique and got it wrong. I adjusted it yet again. (an almost new INT plate that 928intl provided) It was adjusted at the track a few months ago and is working perfectly now .
yes, the adjuster clamps do wear, no doubt
the adjuster arms do not wear to any measureable degree.
mk
Sorry Mark, you are 100% wrong.
You must have missed my post where I said I have two IP with worn adjusters that will not hold the set position. After pushing the clutch in a few times the inner disc moves causing the clutch to drag.
This was tested multiple times using a bell housing cover with a huge hole in it allowing easy / fast adjusting of the disc. I was under the car while it was on a lift, running, with someone going through the gears using the clutch. I could see the gap closing with every clutch depression until there wasn't any gap left. Shut off the car, re-adjust the clutch and do it again. Same results.
You must have missed my post where I said I have two IP with worn adjusters that will not hold the set position. After pushing the clutch in a few times the inner disc moves causing the clutch to drag.
This was tested multiple times using a bell housing cover with a huge hole in it allowing easy / fast adjusting of the disc. I was under the car while it was on a lift, running, with someone going through the gears using the clutch. I could see the gap closing with every clutch depression until there wasn't any gap left. Shut off the car, re-adjust the clutch and do it again. Same results.
07-02-2009, 02:35 PM
#80
Administrator - "Tyson"
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07-02-2009, 02:35 PM
#81
Nordschleife Master
Sorry Mark, you are 100% wrong.
You must have missed my post where I said I have two IP with worn adjusters that will not hold the set position. After pushing the clutch in a few times the inner disc moves causing the clutch to drag.
This was tested multiple times using a bell housing cover with a huge hole in it allowing easy / fast adjusting of the disc. I was under the car while it was on a lift, running, with someone going through the gears using the clutch. I could see the gap closing with every clutch depression until there wasn't any gap left. Shut off the car, re-adjust the clutch and do it again. Same results.
All other parts were band new.
You must have missed my post where I said I have two IP with worn adjusters that will not hold the set position. After pushing the clutch in a few times the inner disc moves causing the clutch to drag.
This was tested multiple times using a bell housing cover with a huge hole in it allowing easy / fast adjusting of the disc. I was under the car while it was on a lift, running, with someone going through the gears using the clutch. I could see the gap closing with every clutch depression until there wasn't any gap left. Shut off the car, re-adjust the clutch and do it again. Same results.
All other parts were band new.
And Mark, all the INT plates that I have removed have not had any rust on them like you have. The only ones I have seen with rust on them are ones which have not been in a car for awhile. And when the clutches are in the car you will clearly see the rust in those areas disapate quickly.
And the reason you dont see any wear on the Int Plate friction surface is because it is MUCH harder material than the small H adjusters.
07-02-2009, 02:35 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
Erik, I was trying to avoid the well-known subject of the forks not holding position -- and point out the "other" wear on the part of the fork that controls gap.
Mark, I have no idea what you are looking at or talking about with cast parts -- the forks are stamped. They are worn in your pic. The angled feature(not shown in the WSM line drawing) is almost completely worn away in your pic. This is why "all the way back" did not work for you.
Please stop with this misinformation that the "forks do not wear". It simply is not true.
Mark, I have no idea what you are looking at or talking about with cast parts -- the forks are stamped. They are worn in your pic. The angled feature(not shown in the WSM line drawing) is almost completely worn away in your pic. This is why "all the way back" did not work for you.
Please stop with this misinformation that the "forks do not wear". It simply is not true.
noone would do THAT in a MK threat would they 
07-02-2009, 02:40 PM
#84
Rennlist Member
WOOOOOOAH!!!
You said that you were under the car and the intermediate plate was able to be moved Forward against the front H adjusters, closing the gap?? that sounds almost impossible. were you looking at the front gap or the normal adjustment area rear gap. the rear gap closes up, and stops the intermediat eplate with clutch depression based on the flat spring pressure. release the clutch and the presssure plate pushes the int to the flywheel leaving a gap. the only way the gap can close is if when the pressure plate is pushing on the int plate, that it is able to move much farther forward due to a super worn front disc.. sounds like you might have put the wrong disc in the front as it is slightly thinner and might do what you are talking about. This certainly is a new twist. Lets discuss!
mk
You said that you were under the car and the intermediate plate was able to be moved Forward against the front H adjusters, closing the gap?? that sounds almost impossible. were you looking at the front gap or the normal adjustment area rear gap. the rear gap closes up, and stops the intermediat eplate with clutch depression based on the flat spring pressure. release the clutch and the presssure plate pushes the int to the flywheel leaving a gap. the only way the gap can close is if when the pressure plate is pushing on the int plate, that it is able to move much farther forward due to a super worn front disc.. sounds like you might have put the wrong disc in the front as it is slightly thinner and might do what you are talking about. This certainly is a new twist. Lets discuss!
mk
Sorry Mark, you are 100% wrong.
You must have missed my post where I said I have two IP with worn adjusters that will not hold the set position. After pushing the clutch in a few times the inner disc moves causing the clutch to drag.
This was tested multiple times using a bell housing cover with a huge hole in it allowing easy / fast adjusting of the disc. I was under the car while it was on a lift, running, with someone going through the gears using the clutch. I could see the gap closing with every clutch depression until there wasn't any gap left. Shut off the car, re-adjust the clutch and do it again. Same results.
All other parts were band new.
You must have missed my post where I said I have two IP with worn adjusters that will not hold the set position. After pushing the clutch in a few times the inner disc moves causing the clutch to drag.
This was tested multiple times using a bell housing cover with a huge hole in it allowing easy / fast adjusting of the disc. I was under the car while it was on a lift, running, with someone going through the gears using the clutch. I could see the gap closing with every clutch depression until there wasn't any gap left. Shut off the car, re-adjust the clutch and do it again. Same results.
All other parts were band new.
07-02-2009, 02:41 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
Colin, I'm curious as to what you have in mind. Feel free to PM or preferably email(addy at the top of my homepage). Maybe I can just send data to save $$$... I have enough formal training in tribology and metrology, plus tools with resolution of ~0.0005" or better, that I might be able to get you what you want.
07-02-2009, 02:50 PM
#86
Rennlist Member
They dont wear (to a noticeble degree. maybe with a electron microscope, but not with feeler gauges), and what you are looking at is an interpretation of a very unclear picture.
That .1mm of wear would only create MORE of an issue with the clutch dragging on the pressure plate as you are thinking, but the amount of movement needed to correct a too wide of gap set up, (ive seen many, and adjusted many, how many have you seen and adjusted?) is more like .5mm. so , a little wear , even if it was possible, and it is not, would not change the adjsustment of a new pressure plate with the PROPER 1mm gap technique.
again, use the 1mm technique, and it will work. the shop manual says so as well! you are arguing with me and the shop manual and seeing things you want to see as far as the pictures. as far as I can see and I looked at the interemediate plate carefully out of the car. it was perfect and no wear was detected.
Stamping, casting, I dont know how they are made but all the parts ive seen look a little different in areas where they dont contact anywhere as well.
mk
That .1mm of wear would only create MORE of an issue with the clutch dragging on the pressure plate as you are thinking, but the amount of movement needed to correct a too wide of gap set up, (ive seen many, and adjusted many, how many have you seen and adjusted?) is more like .5mm. so , a little wear , even if it was possible, and it is not, would not change the adjsustment of a new pressure plate with the PROPER 1mm gap technique.
again, use the 1mm technique, and it will work. the shop manual says so as well! you are arguing with me and the shop manual and seeing things you want to see as far as the pictures. as far as I can see and I looked at the interemediate plate carefully out of the car. it was perfect and no wear was detected.
Stamping, casting, I dont know how they are made but all the parts ive seen look a little different in areas where they dont contact anywhere as well.
mk
Erik, I was trying to avoid the well-known subject of the forks not holding position -- and point out the "other" wear on the part of the fork that controls gap.
Mark, I have no idea what you are looking at or talking about with cast parts -- the forks are stamped. They are worn in your pic. The angled feature(not shown in the WSM line drawing) is almost completely worn away in your pic. This is why "all the way back" did not work for you.
Please stop with this misinformation that the "forks do not wear". It simply is not true.
Mark, I have no idea what you are looking at or talking about with cast parts -- the forks are stamped. They are worn in your pic. The angled feature(not shown in the WSM line drawing) is almost completely worn away in your pic. This is why "all the way back" did not work for you.
Please stop with this misinformation that the "forks do not wear". It simply is not true.
07-02-2009, 02:57 PM
#87
Nordschleife Master
Dave,
Thank you for the offer. I dont think I will share too much info right off the bat, but I would definetly take you up on your offer of getting some measurements.
Getting your email addy now
Thank you for the offer. I dont think I will share too much info right off the bat, but I would definetly take you up on your offer of getting some measurements.
Getting your email addy now
07-02-2009, 03:00 PM
#88
Rennlist Member
There is always rust on an unprotected piece of steel. Its a thin layer, but it is oxidation. steel oxidizes, its just a fact of things exposed to our earth air.
what are you talking about friction surface on the int plate compared to the H adjsusters. IM really confused with that comparison. by the way, ive seen some pretty bad int plate friction surfaces. the H adjusters does not wear because there is really nothing to wear them. just having the int plate press against them under clutch depression is not any force to do anything.
mk
what are you talking about friction surface on the int plate compared to the H adjsusters. IM really confused with that comparison. by the way, ive seen some pretty bad int plate friction surfaces. the H adjusters does not wear because there is really nothing to wear them. just having the int plate press against them under clutch depression is not any force to do anything.
mk
But he isnt talking about that wear.
And Mark, all the INT plates that I have removed have not had any rust on them like you have. The only ones I have seen with rust on them are ones which have not been in a car for awhile. And when the clutches are in the car you will clearly see the rust in those areas disapate quickly.
And the reason you dont see any wear on the Int Plate friction surface is because it is MUCH harder material than the small H adjusters.
And Mark, all the INT plates that I have removed have not had any rust on them like you have. The only ones I have seen with rust on them are ones which have not been in a car for awhile. And when the clutches are in the car you will clearly see the rust in those areas disapate quickly.
And the reason you dont see any wear on the Int Plate friction surface is because it is MUCH harder material than the small H adjusters.
07-02-2009, 03:04 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
Mark, this is how you are acting in this thread:
You're talking a lot but you are not opening your eyes. It seems to me that you are the one who is seeing what you want to see, or not seeing what you don't want to see.
I did not say that we couldn't adjust the forks even if wear is present. I said that you're wrong, they do wear.
Maybe if we didn't have the added factor of you having made an incorrect statement, you could see it. However, now you seem to be so heavily invested in being right that you will ignore facts or make up new ones to avoid admitting that you are wrong. You even go so far as to say that the photographic evidence must be discounted, for no good reason except it doesn't fit your theory.
The reason the question of wear is important is that with a new IP, "all the way back" yields an appropriate gap of near 1mm. With worn forks, "All the way back" can result in too large of a gap(5) of near 1.5mm, resulting in drag of the rear disk against the PP.
You're talking a lot but you are not opening your eyes. It seems to me that you are the one who is seeing what you want to see, or not seeing what you don't want to see.
I did not say that we couldn't adjust the forks even if wear is present. I said that you're wrong, they do wear.
Maybe if we didn't have the added factor of you having made an incorrect statement, you could see it. However, now you seem to be so heavily invested in being right that you will ignore facts or make up new ones to avoid admitting that you are wrong. You even go so far as to say that the photographic evidence must be discounted, for no good reason except it doesn't fit your theory.
The reason the question of wear is important is that with a new IP, "all the way back" yields an appropriate gap of near 1mm. With worn forks, "All the way back" can result in too large of a gap(5) of near 1.5mm, resulting in drag of the rear disk against the PP.
07-02-2009, 03:06 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
