Please help me get this clutch working properly!!
07-02-2009, 12:38 PM
#61
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I'll make a special trip just to change the oil for you, assuming you pay the airfare 
Do you need someone to live on the couch for a few months / years?
Do you need someone to live on the couch for a few months / years?
07-02-2009, 01:06 PM
#62
Nordschleife Master
If you give yourself the 1mm or just over amount of gap (I always do it by eye and have never had to go back in to adjust it). Then yes it will work if everything is in proper order.
That said, MK to say that the H adjusters do not wear is abit silly. The amount of wear, while it may be small over time, is still wear. One would not have to even look at it to know that they would wear. The reason I say this is that EVERY time there is 2 metal pieces which touch but are not WELDED together, there is always an element of wear. It may be small, it may be large, but it is ALWAYS there.
Now you add vibration, and moving and this accelerates the wear. Everytime that you depress the clutch petal the H adjusters will get wear.
That said, MK to say that the H adjusters do not wear is abit silly. The amount of wear, while it may be small over time, is still wear. One would not have to even look at it to know that they would wear. The reason I say this is that EVERY time there is 2 metal pieces which touch but are not WELDED together, there is always an element of wear. It may be small, it may be large, but it is ALWAYS there.
Now you add vibration, and moving and this accelerates the wear. Everytime that you depress the clutch petal the H adjusters will get wear.
07-02-2009, 01:09 PM
#63
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I have two that are no longer usable due to the T-adjusters* not staying where I put them.
*Who started calling them H-adjusters?
07-02-2009, 01:27 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Ive added comments to your last very long post.
Let me know if you need proof about the neutralization of the flat spring phenom when adjusting the Hs all the way back
by the way, one dimension that you might be overlooking is that the adusters can move 4mm all the way back. at that point, the flat spring is totally useless, and actually floats the int plate.
mk
Let me know if you need proof about the neutralization of the flat spring phenom when adjusting the Hs all the way back
by the way, one dimension that you might be overlooking is that the adusters can move 4mm all the way back. at that point, the flat spring is totally useless, and actually floats the int plate.
mk
07-02-2009, 01:34 PM
#65
Nordschleife Master
This thread is giving me ideas.
If any of you have old intermediate plates that are unusable please PM me I would like to have them (for the cost of shipping) and could return them if you really wanted after running some checks on them.
If any of you have old intermediate plates that are unusable please PM me I would like to have them (for the cost of shipping) and could return them if you really wanted after running some checks on them.
07-02-2009, 01:39 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
GEEZ Ok, yes, if you tap on your table you will wear your finger and the table......in one million years!
OK, how about Ill rephrase it. MEASUREABLE wear is NIL! Oh, Ill rephrase it again. Measureable wear with a feeler gauge.
It is not a wear element. sure, there is some vibration when the clutch is depressed and they are touching that could could take a few microns off the surface, but after 30 years, the INP plate I have shows no wear evidence. especially on the rear side.
Think about it. the INT is floating between the H adjusters if adjusted correctly. they only stop the INT plate from moving rearward if you depress the clutch with the force of you fingers against the H adjusters. the rear adjsters should never have contact. Finger pressure folks, does not wear the "H" adjusters.
mk
OK, how about Ill rephrase it. MEASUREABLE wear is NIL! Oh, Ill rephrase it again. Measureable wear with a feeler gauge.
It is not a wear element. sure, there is some vibration when the clutch is depressed and they are touching that could could take a few microns off the surface, but after 30 years, the INP plate I have shows no wear evidence. especially on the rear side.
Think about it. the INT is floating between the H adjusters if adjusted correctly. they only stop the INT plate from moving rearward if you depress the clutch with the force of you fingers against the H adjusters. the rear adjsters should never have contact. Finger pressure folks, does not wear the "H" adjusters.
mk
If you give yourself the 1mm or just over amount of gap (I always do it by eye and have never had to go back in to adjust it). Then yes it will work if everything is in proper order.
That said, MK to say that the H adjusters do not wear is abit silly. The amount of wear, while it may be small over time, is still wear. One would not have to even look at it to know that they would wear. The reason I say this is that EVERY time there is 2 metal pieces which touch but are not WELDED together, there is always an element of wear. It may be small, it may be large, but it is ALWAYS there.
Now you add vibration, and moving and this accelerates the wear. Everytime that you depress the clutch petal the H adjusters will get wear.
That said, MK to say that the H adjusters do not wear is abit silly. The amount of wear, while it may be small over time, is still wear. One would not have to even look at it to know that they would wear. The reason I say this is that EVERY time there is 2 metal pieces which touch but are not WELDED together, there is always an element of wear. It may be small, it may be large, but it is ALWAYS there.
Now you add vibration, and moving and this accelerates the wear. Everytime that you depress the clutch petal the H adjusters will get wear.
07-02-2009, 01:41 PM
#67
I've got one coming into the shop in August...we've adjusted this thing so many times and it will not stay where it should. Be nice to be able to "refurbish" the pins that hold the "H" adjusters so they hold better...
are you admitting you were actually wrong on something MK 
07-02-2009, 01:48 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Greg brown. they do look like H's though and I think its a good name. they are not "T" adjusters, because they have a back side as well. (H on its side )
Thats where I got the idea for pinning them. only thing, is you have to mark the proper adjustment and then pull the clutch, as its really too tough to do with the clutch installed. this would limit travel backwards of the INT plate and as long as I have contact of the front disc, im good. as it wears, ill still be good, as the front H adjuster gap would be able to adapt to the front clutch disc wear (which is near nothing after 8 years of racing mine) anyway, this would artifically make the gap larger in the rear (normal adjustment point), but would not lose effectiveness. in effect, the rear ward travel of the pressure plate would be same, but the IN plate would be slightly closer to the flywheel, so, retraction would be possible and unchanged. at about 1mm of wear on the front disc, you could have some contact lack of pressure. again, mine hasnt worn at all in 8 years of racing, 30,000miles as you can still see the ink of part number printing on the discs!
mk
they do look like H's though and I think its a good name. they are not "T" adjusters, because they have a back side as well. (H on its side )Thats where I got the idea for pinning them. only thing, is you have to mark the proper adjustment and then pull the clutch, as its really too tough to do with the clutch installed. this would limit travel backwards of the INT plate and as long as I have contact of the front disc, im good. as it wears, ill still be good, as the front H adjuster gap would be able to adapt to the front clutch disc wear (which is near nothing after 8 years of racing mine) anyway, this would artifically make the gap larger in the rear (normal adjustment point), but would not lose effectiveness. in effect, the rear ward travel of the pressure plate would be same, but the IN plate would be slightly closer to the flywheel, so, retraction would be possible and unchanged. at about 1mm of wear on the front disc, you could have some contact lack of pressure. again, mine hasnt worn at all in 8 years of racing, 30,000miles as you can still see the ink of part number printing on the discs!
mk
07-02-2009, 01:55 PM
#71
Nordschleife Master
07-02-2009, 01:57 PM
#72
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Mark Kibort's theme song should be "Don't let me be misunderstood" by the Animals
07-02-2009, 02:00 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
Ive added comments to your last very long post.
Let me know if you need proof about the neutralization of the flat spring phenom when adjusting the Hs all the way back
by the way, one dimension that you might be overlooking is that the adusters can move 4mm all the way back. at that point, the flat spring is totally useless, and actually floats the int plate.
mk
Let me know if you need proof about the neutralization of the flat spring phenom when adjusting the Hs all the way back
by the way, one dimension that you might be overlooking is that the adusters can move 4mm all the way back. at that point, the flat spring is totally useless, and actually floats the int plate.
mk
Mark, I know you're not blind, and I know you're not stupid -- at least I THINK I know those things. Why you continue your failure to see the obvious even when it is less than a foot in front of your nose in 640x480 living color is beyond me. Clearly, you are still not paying attention.
The "forks" DO wear, they DO contact the IP on the front side as the front disk wears, the proof is in post #51 above. Forget about the measurements, look at the SHAPE of your worn fork vs my less-worn fork. If you can't see that yours have worn you need glasses(if that's not a 79 plate in the pic you provided, so be it, but the proof is in YOUR OWN PIC). If you can't see that the fork contacts the front of the IP in use you need glasses. The wear shown on your fork would certainly be measurable -- are you afraid to notice this because you have provided your own proof that you are wrong?
I agree that on an IP separate from the car, on the bench, the forks can be moved to the point where the springs on the IP are just floating but it CANNOT BE ASSEMBLED THIS WAY, nor can it operate this way in the car. The PP will push those adjusters forward until you have zero gap(6) and max gap(5). The springs will be compressed and they will cause the IP to move when the clutch is disengaged even if you cut the forks off entirely.
It is pointless to talk about how it behaves on the bench; you need to consider how it works as an assembly. As an assembly, the springs CANNOT be neutralized. It amazes me how with your alleged understanding of the system you can put forth such a ridiculous statement as fact. Your f=ma statement is meaningless; what I meant is, show how the springs can be neutralized and affect the speed of the clutch release AS AN ASSEMBLY.
07-02-2009, 02:07 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Gezzz. I was joking. they dont wear as far as measureable REALITY is concerned. But yes, they can wear. all things do wear to varying degrees. Their wear is not a factor in adjustment here. Hows that?
mk
mk
07-02-2009, 02:09 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
Note that I am talking about wear of the FORKS, not the IP.