WTF...Water Pumps!
05-29-2009, 12:02 AM
#16
Wasn't there some movement on water pump made to more exacting specs using new castings, etc?
05-29-2009, 12:03 AM
#17
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
I guess from what you are saying Greg B that nobody should use anything but a Porsche new pump.
Well guess what they fail as well.
We need to understand that not everybody has a super high performance stroker engine which pushes the envelope of any part on the engine.
Owners listen very carefully to what you say - including me - but should this be applied to WP's for the masses?
You said that Conti belts stretch and I beleive you - but do they stretch on my 78 totally stock car???
The 928 suppliers have been selling Conti belts by the hundreds with no problems.
I try and sell Gates because of your advice. But when Gates are not available should a Conti belt not be OK?
I am beginning to think - subject to your comments - that this is a problem for HP engines and not for the standard every day owner.
You are revered in the 928 World but maybe you are scaring the general 928 owner beyond what is standard use?
If I had a 600HP stroker I would be concerned - but lets bring some reality back to the recomendations - please?
Roger
Well guess what they fail as well.
We need to understand that not everybody has a super high performance stroker engine which pushes the envelope of any part on the engine.
Owners listen very carefully to what you say - including me - but should this be applied to WP's for the masses?
You said that Conti belts stretch and I beleive you - but do they stretch on my 78 totally stock car???
The 928 suppliers have been selling Conti belts by the hundreds with no problems.
I try and sell Gates because of your advice. But when Gates are not available should a Conti belt not be OK?
I am beginning to think - subject to your comments - that this is a problem for HP engines and not for the standard every day owner.
You are revered in the 928 World but maybe you are scaring the general 928 owner beyond what is standard use?
If I had a 600HP stroker I would be concerned - but lets bring some reality back to the recomendations - please?
Roger
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Last edited by ROG100; 05-29-2009 at 01:27 AM.
05-29-2009, 01:06 AM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Lizard's (Colin) twin turbo build is using an electric water pump - he posted pics at some point, possibly in his build thread?
05-29-2009, 01:19 AM
#21
Team Owner
Hi Greg, i would warn you that a NEW factory pump may have been sitting on the shelf for a while B4 you get it.
When i rebuilt my 88 S4 engine i also used a Brand New Porsche pump, it started leaking after 1500 miles, i went with a rebuilt pump from Motorsport Slc .
They have a small number that get rebuilt and then put on the shelf so my rebuilt was days old, and has been fine ever since, plus while i worked there , i never had to replace any of the pump that i installed except my own as they use the rebuilts almost exclusively.
Might be worth a shot, Good Luck. on your motor, Stan
When i rebuilt my 88 S4 engine i also used a Brand New Porsche pump, it started leaking after 1500 miles, i went with a rebuilt pump from Motorsport Slc .
They have a small number that get rebuilt and then put on the shelf so my rebuilt was days old, and has been fine ever since, plus while i worked there , i never had to replace any of the pump that i installed except my own as they use the rebuilts almost exclusively.
Might be worth a shot, Good Luck. on your motor, Stan
05-29-2009, 01:25 AM
#22
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Well I guess we just stop selling water pumps !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I stopped selling rebuilt WP's unless the customer insists after knowing all the facts.
I now stop selling Laso WP's because they fail on a very suspect (not stock) HP engine pushing everything to the limit.
I now only sell Porsche WP at circa $600 and they fail as well.
Sorry guys we cant sell any WP's anymore.
Just trying to say we need some sense of realism here unless you want to keep your rebuilt, remanufactured, Laso new, Porsche rebuilt, Porsche new on their forever. I promise you it will never fail - not.
Electric - well how long can you wait to get your car back on the road????????? What do we do while we are waiting for the development?
Sorry but I see no where to go unless we at least use something.
I stopped selling rebuilt WP's unless the customer insists after knowing all the facts.
I now stop selling Laso WP's because they fail on a very suspect (not stock) HP engine pushing everything to the limit.
I now only sell Porsche WP at circa $600 and they fail as well.
Sorry guys we cant sell any WP's anymore.
Just trying to say we need some sense of realism here unless you want to keep your rebuilt, remanufactured, Laso new, Porsche rebuilt, Porsche new on their forever. I promise you it will never fail - not.
Electric - well how long can you wait to get your car back on the road????????? What do we do while we are waiting for the development?
Sorry but I see no where to go unless we at least use something.
05-29-2009, 01:35 AM
#23
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
The Porsche dealer did not change the WP on my car when the PO took it in for the 60K mile TB service. It's not called for in the maintenance schedule. 9 years later at 90K miles, a year after I bought the car from the PO, I decided to do the TB, even though there is no specified time limit on the TB, just mileage. What the heck, I was a novice. Both the belt (with only 30K miles) and the water pump (90K) were very hard to distinguish from new. The WP bearing was still firm although not quite as stiff as the new pump. Still, I changed and left the replacement pump on for another 90K miles and found it to be good as new as well when I replaced it recently. I'll probably continue to change it every other belt, although I see that I'm risking getting a bad pump at some point. I've been lucky so far.
05-29-2009, 01:41 AM
#24
Rest in Peace
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bird lover in Sharpsburg
Posts: 9,903
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
You pay your money and take your chances, simple as that.
The water pumps on these cars are suspect, every damn one of them.
There are two choices, hope you get a good one or park your car when it needs a pump.
I am going to drive mine if it ever runs again.
The water pumps on these cars are suspect, every damn one of them.
There are two choices, hope you get a good one or park your car when it needs a pump.
I am going to drive mine if it ever runs again.
Well I guess we just stop selling water pumps !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I stopped selling rebuilt WP's unless the customer insists after knowing all the facts.
I now stop selling Laso WP's because they fail on a very suspect (not stock) HP engine pushing everything to the limit.
I now only sell Porsche WP at circa $600 and they fail as well.
Sorry guys we cant sell any WP's anymore.
Just trying to say we need some sense of realism here unless you want to keep your rebuilt, remanufactured, Laso new, Porsche rebuilt, Porsche new on their forever. I promise you it will never fail - not.
Electric - well how long can you wait to get your car back on the road????????? What do we do while we are waiting for the development?
Sorry but I see no where to go unless we at least use something.
I stopped selling rebuilt WP's unless the customer insists after knowing all the facts.
I now stop selling Laso WP's because they fail on a very suspect (not stock) HP engine pushing everything to the limit.
I now only sell Porsche WP at circa $600 and they fail as well.
Sorry guys we cant sell any WP's anymore.
Just trying to say we need some sense of realism here unless you want to keep your rebuilt, remanufactured, Laso new, Porsche rebuilt, Porsche new on their forever. I promise you it will never fail - not.
Electric - well how long can you wait to get your car back on the road????????? What do we do while we are waiting for the development?
Sorry but I see no where to go unless we at least use something.
05-29-2009, 01:49 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
Have a new Lasso bolted into an 85.
Its gotta be better than a many-times rebuilt core for which the tolerances have deteriorated.
Maybe the stock-type water pump could be strengthened for the big HP motors.
Its gotta be better than a many-times rebuilt core for which the tolerances have deteriorated.
Maybe the stock-type water pump could be strengthened for the big HP motors.
05-29-2009, 01:50 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Gatineau/Ottawa Canada 84 928S triple black
Posts: 1,372
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I'm in the "change it if it needs it" camp.
Just did mine (link in sig) and the WP was a rebuilt and leaking.
PO did not have it change not sure the PPO did or not but can't recall reading about it in the records.
So it might have been in there for more than 10 years.
Hope this one will last as long....
Just did mine (link in sig) and the WP was a rebuilt and leaking.
PO did not have it change not sure the PPO did or not but can't recall reading about it in the records.
So it might have been in there for more than 10 years.
Hope this one will last as long....
05-29-2009, 02:13 AM
#27
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Isn't this what Worf and I have been saying for years?
I'm done screwing around with fricking water pumps.
I used 928 International rebuilt pumps for years. Had a grand total of 4 fail...all leaked....none fell apart or seized. I relaced every one...on my own nickel...sure, they replaced the pump, but I personally provided the labor.
The recent "rash" of rebuilt pumps falling apart scared the crap out of me...so I personally took all the different pumps apart and inspected them. The factory pumps are the best, there is no doubt about it, but they are expensive.
The Lasco pumps looked really good. Not as good as the factory water pumps...but close. Good bearings, good pulley, nice tight fit on the impeller and the pulley. The impeller is cast, while the factory one is forged. The aluminum "casting" is rougher, but who cares? Well, I guess I do, now!
Well, I just had the very first Lasco pump I installed seize on a stroker motor, while on the dyno. The car has a few hundred miles on it...no signs of problems. Huge squeal from the belt area. Temperature went nuts, instantly! Got it shut down and the belt took a beating, but hung in there. The engine is still fine...but water pumps don't change themselves, very fast!
I'm over this crap. I'm only using brand new, factory pumps on all my engines, from here on out!
I used 928 International rebuilt pumps for years. Had a grand total of 4 fail...all leaked....none fell apart or seized. I relaced every one...on my own nickel...sure, they replaced the pump, but I personally provided the labor.
The recent "rash" of rebuilt pumps falling apart scared the crap out of me...so I personally took all the different pumps apart and inspected them. The factory pumps are the best, there is no doubt about it, but they are expensive.
The Lasco pumps looked really good. Not as good as the factory water pumps...but close. Good bearings, good pulley, nice tight fit on the impeller and the pulley. The impeller is cast, while the factory one is forged. The aluminum "casting" is rougher, but who cares? Well, I guess I do, now!
Well, I just had the very first Lasco pump I installed seize on a stroker motor, while on the dyno. The car has a few hundred miles on it...no signs of problems. Huge squeal from the belt area. Temperature went nuts, instantly! Got it shut down and the belt took a beating, but hung in there. The engine is still fine...but water pumps don't change themselves, very fast!
I'm over this crap. I'm only using brand new, factory pumps on all my engines, from here on out!
05-29-2009, 02:17 AM
#28
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
I guess from what you are saying Greg B that nobody should use anything but a Porsche new pump.
Well guess what they fail as well.
We need to understand that not everybody has a super high performance stroker engine which pushes the envelope of any part on the engine.
Owners listen very carefully to what you say - including me - but should this be applied to WP's for the masses?
You said that Conti belts stretch and I beleive you - but do they stretch on my 78 totally stock car???
The 928 suppliers have been selling Conti belts by the hundreds with no problems.
I try and sell Gates because of your advice. But when Gates are not available should a Conti belt not be OK?
I am beginning to think - subject to your comments - that this is a problem for HP engines and not for the standard every day owner.
You are revered in the 928 World but maybe you are scaring the general 928 owner beyond what is standard use?
If I had a 600HP stroker I would be concerned - but lets bring some reality back to the recomendations - please?
Roger
Well guess what they fail as well.
We need to understand that not everybody has a super high performance stroker engine which pushes the envelope of any part on the engine.
Owners listen very carefully to what you say - including me - but should this be applied to WP's for the masses?
You said that Conti belts stretch and I beleive you - but do they stretch on my 78 totally stock car???
The 928 suppliers have been selling Conti belts by the hundreds with no problems.
I try and sell Gates because of your advice. But when Gates are not available should a Conti belt not be OK?
I am beginning to think - subject to your comments - that this is a problem for HP engines and not for the standard every day owner.
You are revered in the 928 World but maybe you are scaring the general 928 owner beyond what is standard use?
If I had a 600HP stroker I would be concerned - but lets bring some reality back to the recomendations - please?
Roger
Perhaps you could be clearer, because I don't know what you are suggesting.
Install belts on vehicles that I know stretch? Only put them on early cars? Tell other people that stretchy belts are a good thing?
Should I go grab another Lasco pump and stick it on? 150 miles of running and the first one I ever use seizes? I've never had a rebuilt stick...and I've been using them exclusively for 20 years, but I've seen a tremendous amount of them fall apart lately. What do I do? What should I tell people to do?
What does the water pump have to do with a stroker? The pump turns the same rpms, stroker or not. These engines don't run warmer. What is the difference to the water pump? The water pump somehow knows what the crankshaft is doing?
I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, here. Just passing on what I experience. Yes, people trust me. They trust me to fix their cars. They trust my advice. What do I tell them here?
Give me some ideas.
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
05-29-2009, 02:17 AM
#29
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I totally agree. I have been using rebuilt Porsche ones for a long time and have not had a failure, but I have had several failures on other pumps (I won't go there again, you know the details) ... we do have to use something while we wait for Lizard to make an electric alternative. Worst thing that can happen to an electric pump, is overheat.
Well I guess we just stop selling water pumps !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I stopped selling rebuilt WP's unless the customer insists after knowing all the facts.
I now stop selling Laso WP's because they fail on a very suspect (not stock) HP engine pushing everything to the limit.
I now only sell Porsche WP at circa $600 and they fail as well.
Sorry guys we cant sell any WP's anymore.
Just trying to say we need some sense of realism here unless you want to keep your rebuilt, remanufactured, Laso new, Porsche rebuilt, Porsche new on their forever. I promise you it will never fail - not.
Electric - well how long can you wait to get your car back on the road????????? What do we do while we are waiting for the development?
Sorry but I see no where to go unless we at least use something.
I stopped selling rebuilt WP's unless the customer insists after knowing all the facts.
I now stop selling Laso WP's because they fail on a very suspect (not stock) HP engine pushing everything to the limit.
I now only sell Porsche WP at circa $600 and they fail as well.
Sorry guys we cant sell any WP's anymore.
Just trying to say we need some sense of realism here unless you want to keep your rebuilt, remanufactured, Laso new, Porsche rebuilt, Porsche new on their forever. I promise you it will never fail - not.
Electric - well how long can you wait to get your car back on the road????????? What do we do while we are waiting for the development?
Sorry but I see no where to go unless we at least use something.
05-29-2009, 02:20 AM
#30
Nordschleife Master