John Veninger

What a joke! At that price a custom pump design is within reach.
I'm going to run my NEW Porsche pump on the track car until it leaks, then rebuild it my self somehow.

JPTL

Dave, is John V's w.p. failure resulting in catastrophic engine damage the one that you refer to? I have to admit seeing that happen @ Summit Point gave me the Water Pump *******. I can only imagine how this experience has affected how John 'monitors' his engines. Reading this thread has me going back & forth from uneasiness to comfort & then back again.
I'd be curious as to the actual data as to all cars on RL - modded & stock, and their w.p. history in every regard:

• Instances of original w.p. failure > @ what mileage > how many catastrophic?
• Mileage at original w.p. changeout as maintenance
• Instances of rebuilt w.p. failures > @ what mileage > how many catastrophic?
• Mileage at rebuilt w.p. changeout as maintenance
• Current miles on original w.p.
• Current miles on rebuilt w.p.

worf928

Yup. If there's another then I've forgotten about it or didn't know.

GMS

Maybe the pump could be redesigned/manufactured to enable it to be driven off one of the accessory belts.
It would also require an idler assembly to enable the existing length timing belt to be used.

GregBBRD

I think we've covered this. My failure was fine, until the engine was shut off to change a piece. It failed on start-up. I'm assuming that something heat soaked and moved on start-up.

gb

Manfred

This thread gives me the *******. I'm adopting an Ostrich-like strategy--no more reading this thread for me!

porsche928guy

Hey everyone...what about this thought. It will be like trying to herd cats but what if we (as a community) paid to have a pump developed or paid one of the more knowledgeable members a reasonable sum to develop one. It sounds like there is a handle on what might need to be done so the major hurdle now is the money and time.

I can understand one of the big 4 not wanting to dump a lot of money into R&D for a product that appears to have a very small failure rate but the thought of a failure like this makes me very nervous. It seems to me that these are great cars that are almost bullet proof but the t-belt/wp/tensioner is one major weak point. PorKen has made a big step in pretty much eliminating tensioner worries.

I know the devil is in the details but how many members are there here? If we all chipped in $20 or $30 bucks each I'd have to think that would go a long way in getting somewhere. Once it is complete those that chipped in would get the unit at manufacturing cost. Those that didn't would pay a reasonable mark-up which would then be distributed evenly to those who contributed or put back into a fund for further non-profit product R&D. As these cars get older more and more parts will become NLA. This might be a good way to take care of those issues as well.

Thoughts?

Jadz928

If you propose venture capatalism here, I would suggest one majority contributor, and a no more the a few minority contributors (say %10 each).
This group would be the product development board-of-directors.
Any more and your asking for trouble (read too many egos).
Further contributions ($20-30 range) would be "donations", as I see it. Otherwise it would be to hard to manage everyone's interest (or expectations)in the product.
My exerience in product development (10yrs+) has told me that now-a-days, it is near impossible to develop a product for anything less than $25K. And I'm being real conservative with that estimate.
For a water pump, you could figure at least $15K in tooling for die-castings, $5K in PD, $5-10K for prototyping and testing. Then you have first run production costs (200 units @ $50each = $10K). So that's $35-40K.
So you sell 200 units per year for retail $100 ($50 profit). That's 3-4 years amortization just to pay for tooling.
Long-term field testing, durability testing is a another dynamic not considered here. But consider to do it right would cost just as much as to develop the product and would require full capital leverage prior to know for sure if the damn thing will really be reliable into the 99th percentile.

So the real question is this; can the product be profitable for a niche market? I don't know the answer because (1) I don't have a clue how many sell per year, (2) would anyone buy it?

Is it doable? Hell yeah.
First, you need solid PD plan, with proposed break-even targets.
Second, you need market analysis. This will help determine if you develop for a $150 retail pump or $300.
Third, Phase 1 PD to establish rough capital expense, and validate cost target.
Fourth, find someone with a big wallet and knock their socks off.

If you make it to step 5, you are 10% of the way there.

Ketchmi

Considering 928Intl has sold 1800ish rebuilds over their extensive business life, I think 200 a year is VERY optimistic!

DANdeMAN

Why not contact the manufacturer and ask them tu make it with a bigger bearing/shaft/whatever!?
Talking to the vendors here.....

Black Sea RD

Hi Daniel,

Not trying to speak on the behalf of Roger too, but he tried this as I did a bit with Laso.

It goes back to their own economics, as in how many 928 water pumps do they sell per year to make it worth their while to spend money making changes to their tooling we 928ers want. Given the current economy worldwide, it is extremely doubtful any manufacturer will be willing to invest in changes on a product that has so few problems from their vantage point.

The little project we tried with Laso did not materialize.

Cheers

ROG100

Constantine is right of course (he usually is 8>) Laso has enough problems justifying the R&D to add the additional bush and are still awaiting approval for the non metalic impellar upgrade.
I have forwarded this thread to the Managing Director of Laso and I know he will be very interested in trying to establish why the pump failed. He is an avid car nut like us and a highly skilled engineer to boot.
Greg B would you be willing to share info with Laso to help find the cause?

GregBBRD

Absolutely! Perhaps we could forward the pump directly to them, if they are interested, instead of just returning it to SSF, where it will just end up in the trash can. Not many companies would even care....if they really do, that would speak volumes about them.

The "other" Greg, is sending me the one he had fail, also.

ROG100

Greg,
Thank you very much and as soon as he contacts me I will set up what is needed.
Laso is the only company with any interest in our WP's. They have always responded to us/me positivly and I expect they will do again.
Best,
Roger

DANdeMAN

Thanks Constantine.... I was expecting an answer like that but still asked in case it had not been tried.

Also we have to take into account that many here change the WP/TB way before it is time; every 3-4 years regardless of milles.
So that as to be factured in to the 1% everyone is talking about.

At this time, I have a "NO NAME" pump in mine, will keep a close eye/ear on it....